I have been working my way through dozens of Bible and theology questions which people have submitted through that “ask a question” area in the sidebar. Here is one that was sent in about whether or not women can preach in church.
Is it biblical for the woman to preach in the congregation?
Along with this question about whether or not it is wrong for a woman to preach, I will also briefly address the issue of women pastors.
This question has split some churches, which I find odd. Of all the things that can create division within the church, why is it the ones that only have a verse or two one way or the other which seem to be the most divisive? I suppose if there were scores of verses the issue would be more cut and dry, but when there are only a couple verses dealing with an issue, people are more likely to fight over it, especially when the verses are a little vague …
So let’s briefly look at some of the key passages which seem to address the issue of whether or not it is wrong for women to preach in church, and then I will provide one short and simple suggestion for how this whole issue can easily be dealt with.
Bible Passages about Women Preaching in Church
Though there are a variety of passages which people on both sides of the debate appeal to regarding whether or not it is okay for women to preach in church (e.g., various female “preachers” in the Old Testament like Miriam and Deborah and the female prophetesses in Acts 21:9, and the female apostle in Romans 16:7), two of the main texts in this debate about women preachers and female pastors are 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34.
Let us look briefly at each.
1 Timothy 2:12 and Women Preachers in Church
In 1 Timothy 2:11-12, Paul writes this:
Let a woman learn in silence and with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Initially, 1 Timothy 2:12 seems pretty clear, but with a little bit of study, it quickly becomes obvious that the text is not so clear after all.
First, there are numerous times in the book of Acts and in some of Paul’s other letters where women appear to be speaking in the gatherings of the church with the approval of others, so whatever Paul is saying here, it does not seem to be a rule which he himself universally followed (Acts 16:14-15; Acts 18:26).
Second, even if Paul himself did require all women to remain silent in church gatherings, there is some debate about whether Paul was describing his own preference and practice, or whether he was giving instructions for all churches everywhere throughout time to follow as well. That is, this verse in 1 Timothy was written to a specific person about a specific situation at a specific time. Does that it mean it can be universally applied? Paul even says, “I do not permit …” which is different than “you should not permit …” (though 1 Corinthians 14:34 does phrase it this way).
Most importantly, however, it is critical to understand what Paul means by the terms “silence and submission” and “teach or to have authority.” To understand this, we not only need to study the words in their contexts, but we also need to understand that cultural and historical background for what was going on among this group of believers in Ephesus where Timothy lived.
So, based on these three considerations, a text like 1 Timothy 2:12 is not so clear as some believe about the issue or women preaching in church. The same is true for 1 Corinthians 14:34.
1 Corinthians 14:34 and Women Preachers in Church
Paul says something similar in his letter to the Corinthians as he wrote in his letter to Timothy. 1 Corinthians 14:34 says this:
Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
We have a lot of similar issues with 1 Corinthians 14:34 as we have with 1 Timothy 2:12. There are numerous cultural, historical, grammatical, and contextual issues that must be researched if we are going to understand what Paul is saying and why.
One of the main differences here is that Paul does seem to be giving instructions to the church about what to do rather than just stating what he himself does (as with 1 Timothy 2:12 above). Yet even this does not mean we have a hard and fast rule for every church around the world and throughout time. After all, the Corinthians church was full of problems, and so not everything Paul writes to them can be applied to every church.
Furthermore, few churches who use 1 Corinthians 14:34 to defend the idea that it is wrong for women to preach in church also apply Paul’s instructions that women should wear head coverings (1 Corinthians 11:2-10).
I could go on and on about more of the arguments surrounding this text, but let’s leave it aside for now. (If you want to read more, here are two good books which lay out the issues: Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and Beyond Sex Roles.)
The Simple Solution to Women Preaching in Church
Most of Christianity’s debates have a simple solution. Did you know that?
More often than not, when two (or more) groups of Christians are hotly debating an issue (and calling each other heretics in the process), it is because both groups have incorrectly framed the issue, and are arguing about something that should not be an issue at all.
This issue about whether it is wrong from women to preach in church or be a pastor is one of the greatest examples.
The simple solution to the problem is to recognize that the only groups who really argue about this issue are groups of Christians who meet in buildings on Sunday morning and have paid pastors who do most of the preaching.
This issue of whether or not women can preach in church and be pastors is almost never an issue when groups of believers meet in homes, in coffee shops, or at the local park to encourage one another, to edify one another, or to just hang out. In such organic gatherings of the church, it would be unthinkable to tell the women to remain silent. I have often learned more from the women in these gatherings than from the men.
Look, if you attend a traditional-style church service on Sunday morning, it is possible that you also attend a Sunday school class or a weeknight Bible study. Let me ask you, these gatherings also are part of the church. Does it ever occur to you to raise the question about whether or not women should remain silent in your Sunday school class or in your Wednesday night home group Bible study? Of course not! It’s unthinkable!
The only place this issue comes up today is in this strange way we have come to “do church” where everybody sits in rows and watches a performance on stage in which songs are sung and one person gives a 30-40 minute lecture.
(Which raises the question … songs also are a form of teaching, are they not? How many of these churches who condemn female pastors and women preachers have female worship leaders? I would be interested to know what the difference is between teaching through words put to music and teaching through words not put to music?)
So Is it Wrong for Women to Preach in Church?
In the debate about women preaching in church, the primary problem is not found in how we understand preaching or authority over men or what Paul means in 1 Timothy 2:12 or 1 Corinthains14:34. No, the problem is in how we define “church.”
This issue, which has caused so much division within the church, is based almost 100% on a faulty definition and understanding of “the church.” Once we understand what the church is, this debate about whether or not women can preach in church completely disappears and becomes a non-issue. (This is why a definition of the church is so critical … see my book Skeleton Church).
Sure, we still have to figure out why Paul wrote what he wrote To Timothy and to Corinth (for the churches in Ephesus and Corinth too were meeting in homes as well). But since nobody (rightfully so!) is going to tell women to remain silent in home groups and any other gathering of the church. Also, in such gatherings, there are almost never questions about who gets to be called “pastor.” (Or at least, there shouldn’t be.)
So here is my final answer: I believe women can speak and teach in church, because I understand the church to be the people of God who follow Jesus into the world, and so a gathering of the church occurs whenever and wherever believers gather, whether it is two or three around a dinner table, five or six in a living room, seven or eight at a coffee shop, or larger gatherings in some other building.
For those who think that it is wrong for women to preach in church, I would ask them this: “Is it wrong for women to speak in Sunday school or home group Bible studies?”
If not, why not? These also are gatherings of the church, are they not? Men are usually present at these gatherings, right? Why can women speak and teach in one context, but not in others (especially when this other large-group context is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible)?
Once we understand the definition of “church” the whole debate about whether or not it is wrong for women to preach in church or be a “pastor” fades away into insignificance. It becomes a non-issue.
So … comments are open! On your mark, get set, GO! (*Please be nice*)
I agree with a lot of what you said. The context is sooo important. Professional pulpiteers simply did not exist in the first century and so that is definitely an issue. It is always absolutely okay for a women to prophesy, give a testimony, bear witness , teach women and children. Here is where I believe it gets a little sensitive. I believe it is inappropriate for women to teach men in the assembly. It’s also potentially damaging when a women asks a man other than her husband a question during a teaching. It’s not about authority it is about responsibility. In the family it is the man’s responsibility to teach his own. If a women asks another man a question it implies that this is not being done which is another problem altogether. It is the husbands job to submit to the male elders not the wives. Wives submit to their OWN husbands. If the woman has a question it would be okay for her to ask her husband who can decide whether to ask right then and there or explain it to her later. There is a lot more explanation. This is all in place to avoid spiritual dependence of women on men who are not thier husbands and having men become spiritually dependent on women who are not men. Also to keep the Father’s and husband’s accountable for teaching in the home. And to follow the pattern of responsibility laid out by God. Single women would simply submit to the elder women. And of course we all submit to one another Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth. This explanation can easily be misunderstood. This also a way to keep things decent and orderly. All in context of teaching which only one of many things occuring during a gathering of the saints. You might have many meetings where there is little to no formal teaching but a lot of sharing, praising, prayer, worship etc. It is only during any “fomal” teaching that this applies. Again this teaching is not during a certain time or duration every week but offered to the saints when led by the Spirit to do so.
It is a touchy subject. I wish we had videos of Paul’s house meetings. Could it really be possible that all women had to sit in silence during those times? I highly doubt it. And yet what is the difference between prophecy and teaching? Or singing and teaching?
How can a female bishop be the husband of one wife? 1 Timothy 3:2
Robert,
Since same sex marriage has been made legal in many states, it would not be difficult at all. But I suspect that is not the point here, as much as I am sure that it is not Paul’s point to exclude Women from the role of “Bishop”, whatever that is. The question is one of fidelity to commitment within a relationship setting that qualifies a person for the position of Bishop, not their gender.
Arguing from the absence is the weakest form of argument, and so I choose not to even believe that simply because women are not mentioned, they are not meant to fulfill this role. Funny, I have heard preachers who say this verse does not preclude non-married men, divorced men, even some who said that polygamous men were not necessarily precluded using this verse, but nearly all of them use this verse to exclude women. Sad indeed. We should focus more on the character of an individual than their gender, maybe then we would have fewer pastors caught in adultery or worse.
Pastor FedEx.
Just because same sex “marriages” are now legal doesn’t make it biblical or something that God permits.
I have to agree with JD on this one.
I agree with JD as well – God spoke – period. We cannot go around what God says by saying, “Well, our secular laws have now changed so God will have to take into account that fact – therefore, since our secular laws have changed, then God saying a “bishop must be the husband of one wife” – really wouldn’t apply to us today.”
God says His Word remains forever – even when Heaven and Earth passes away – His Word – and Him – changes not.
You are so naive – a woman in love will believe what she wants to believe regardless of the circumstances. Women through the ages have brought men to their knees. Men need to take authority and keep it.
God never said women are not to preach.these scriptures were Paul’s opinions.God never told Paul for women to be silent.acts 2:17 says in the last days God saidI will pour out my spirit on your sons and daughters to prophesy. So hear it is clear men nor women to be silent.Paul said he rather stay single.But God said its not good for man to be alone
Prophesying is a gift, just like speaking in tongues,interpretation, wisdom …read 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.
Nowhere in the bible does it say women can’t have any of these gifts.
It is interesting to note that the bible then clearly demarcates and says women cannot preach not once, not twice…it couldn’t have been a mistake or an opinion.
We also do not have any record of women preachers & priests in the entire bible or even a book dedicated or named after a woman priest or preacher.
Did God make an oversight? I don’t think so.
If it was Paul’s opinion,God would not have allowed it in his bible, he was sen from God with his message.
1 Cor 2:1
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
Paul’s writings are not Paul’s, but the word of God as it was given to him by God the Holy Spirit. Secondly the Pastor and Deacon “Office” are distinguished by Scripture very clearly by those who follow God’s Word. Yes women who have the gift of Teaching via God the Holy Spirit can teach but they cannot take on the clearly defined “Office” Position of Pastor as defined in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1:6, The Scripture is the first and final authority on what God has spoken, not the rhetorical babble of heretics who don’t follow the word of God. As our Lord clearly points out in Mark 7:8-13 those who disregard Gods word for the traditions of man. Romans 12:1-2 Gods children will not conform to the world or the Apostate church.
Opinions?
The only place Paul gave his “opinion” was in (primary reference) 1 Cor. 7:40, followed up by “and I think I have the Spirit of God”. Quite a difference from what he says in conclusion in vs. 36, 37 of 1 Cor. 14, which follows, in context, right on the tail of vs. 34, 35 concerning women preaching. Read it and weep!
I agree with you all the way!!!!
Amen, In Christ there is neither male nor female, we are all commissioned to preach the gospel.
That deserves an exhibition of the Air Force. Or the salutation of 21 gun salute. That is, was and remain my arguments. Mary Magdalene was told to go and tell Jesus’s disciples and Peter too where to meet him and he was alive. (Women preaching)
Paul is not married too so does that mean Paul cannot be teaching or even becoming an elder?
Discernment need to be exercised here.
Act 2:17
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”
Prophesy has the meaning to teaching
The word speak in 1 cor 14:34
The word speak in Greek is laleó Definition: (I talk, chatter in classical Greek, but in NT a more dignified word) I speak, say.
The bible has to reconciled.
Basically both men and women should not chit chat or disrupt worship in church through speaking.
God blessed.
Like David says, it is clear that the Bible teaches for a woman to keep silent. “1 Timothy 2:11-14
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.”
You can not see any records in the Bible wherein, woman exercise authority over a man, nor preach or has any part in the priesthood. Levi, one of the tribes, were given authority from God that they will be part of the priesthood and it is a man. You need to follow all the commandments of God because if you really love God, you need to follow and obey his commandments, ” John 14:15 15If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
We need to obey him because he is our Lord and God, not only God but He is our Father and we need to Honour him.
There are many verses and example that women prophesy and teach.
A good example is:
Acts 18:26
He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
So have Priscilla violate the 1 tim 2:11-14? Definitely yes and she is not condemned for it. Paul praises them too.
Do you want to let your your wives and daughters to submit to other men other than yourself? I will not allow them to be submit to other men. no way.
Just like Paul asking slaves to obey their master, is it really ok to have slaves nowadays? Definitely not.
Do you chop off your hand in Matthew 5:30. Definitely not because it is referring to the body of Christ (various branches of the church) that have sin irrevocably.
We must not ask what happen 1 Timothy. Should we take it literally?
It is possible that it is a culture at that point of time. In view of many other verses that contradicts 1 timothy. I would rather be on the side of the other verse than to rely on 1 timothy as absolute truth.
God blessed.
Yes. This is why when studying the Word we need to invite the Holy Spirit to teach us. We can never assume we know anything or use our mere intellect or brain power to discern the things of God.
We must take into account the cultural context of the cities of which Paul was writing to. He was addressing specific issues for that time. It is hard to base a whole theological ideal around a few verses, that would be proof texting. Instead, we should look to the whole of the Scriptures. there were MANY women who taught, both in the OT and in the NT. Can you argue that Miriam, Deborah, Tabitha, Lydia, and Priscilla were just oversights? I do not believe so. I believe that in light of these women, and their roles, we should see that women CAN be teachers and preachers. Christ was also seen as counter cultural. He did not prohibit women from speaking or teaching, therefore, again, we should see Paul’s letters for a specific group, not all Churches for all times.
Amen.
You are so right!
It was addressing the man preachers
And where do we stop saying “take into account the cultural context of the cities of which Paul was writing to. He was addressing specific issues for that time. It is hard to base a whole theological ideal around a few verses”? At which point, on which issue are we going to make a stand on what a particular set of scriptures says? The only Text I have to understand His Will is His Word, which has been divinely breathed into certain men to write down so each generation till His Return can read, and through the inspiration from the Holy Spirit, be able to comprehend His Will.
What I know for sure is Paul tells us to avoid offense and prays that the Holy Spirit will exercise His Power in us so we will have the strength to comprehend the length, breadth, depth and height of God’s Love, so that we might achieve fullness of our faith. So, be void of offense, neither give it not take it, and love others as Jesus loves us.
Finally, I am reminded of John 21:21. Peter expresses concern over the notion that John may not die before Jesus’ return. Speaking more directly than at any time in His ministry, Jesus says “what concern is it of yours, Peter, what I do with John? YOU FOLLOW ME!”
Even so, is Jesus being preached?
Consider the context here. Men often had more than one wife but women never had more than one husband at a time. It would have been strange for Paul to say that a church leader should never have more than one husband because in that culture women never did. So, Paul says that men should only have one wife because more than one would detract from their ministry. Women only had one husband so it wasn’t necessary to say anything about them – it was assumed that they would not be distracted by more than one husband.
Since Polygamy wasn’t a problem with women it was addressed to men only.
There is no such thing as a female bishop. Biblically speaking.
King David did all the above and it was still seen as delivering the Word and Praising God. Giving Him all the Glory and defining Him as Lord.
Honestly, I do not understand why this is an issue in some circles. The first churches were home churches. If you look at the names of the leaders of these home churches, you will see a great many were actually women. Paul’s letters were to specific churches and many were having problems because of recent pagan converts (some had been priestesses) disrupting services. In those days (and in some countries still), men and women sat seperately from each other and sometimes the new female converts would yell to the men to ask questions.
There were also issues with some new female converts who had shaved their heads as a sacrifice to their local gods and some were temple prostitutes. In this community, women didn’t neccessarily cover their heads but Paul got them to cover their heads because of their former life. Yes, I know it was also Jewish tradition and part of some cultural traditions as well. People were just as catty and judgmental back then as they are today and covering their heads helped them fit in better.
Th thing is that if God gives gifts and he is no respector of persons or does not take into consideration male or female, then why does it matter who brings the Word of God. If God gives revelation of the Word and annoints a person to do it, why should their gender matter?
When Jesus gave the Great Commission, there were women there. He did not give stipulations. Considering he did not even fully follow his own culture i.e. teaching women, spending time with them and others considered to be outcasts and outright sinners by the religious leaders of his day, then why should it matter to us?
You need to base your beliefs on the truths of scripture instead of trying to reason from your own preferences. Nowhere in the Bible are there female apostles, pastors, or deacons.
And nowhere in the Bible are there, salaried clergy, clerical vestments, church tithing, guitar playing, church building funds, senior pastors, archbishops or Sunday schools.
Oh yes there is!
“Greet Andronicus and JUNIA, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are OF NOTE AMONG THE APOSTLES, who also were in Christ before me.”
~Romans 16:7 (Junia was a woman and an apostle)
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a DEACON in the church in Cenchrea. Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God’s people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially to me.
~Romans 16:1-2
So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. [Priscilla also taught Apollos!]
~Acts 18:26
“Of note among the apostles – Whether this intimates that they were noted apostles or only highly reputed by the apostles, is not absolutely clear…”
Carm website says: “Different sources see Junia as male and a female. But, if we look at the word strictly as being masculine or feminine, it appears that it is feminine.”
This is true.
You are wrong. Scripture clearly indicates that Phoebe was a deaconess in Romans 16:1-2.
You are on the money! Most of the women in the Ephesian church were converts, and were unlearned. Paul was speaking to a specific issue for a specific time, not making a prohibition for all times.
it says nothing to do with the culture he was in. Paul was not speaking from his opinion either but from the Holy Spirit of Christ. The fact that there is so much confusion on this verse because of this effeminate feminist culture and God is not the author of confusion, only shows pure disorder and obedience in the body of Christ.
context is key and it seems that most people in this section are not actually preaching the real word of God only there opinions and feelings.
Women can’t be a pastor, it’s designated only for men, women are to have a gentle quiet spirit and be silent not just never speak ever, and there are no women pastors in the Bible or women apostles. His Word is clear and yet you are all making God’s word confusion when the Bible says He is NOT the author of confusion, so..why is this clear verse so confusing?
The body of Christ is all out of order today. Smh. Just do what the word says and get out your feelings.
it has nothing to do with the culture he was in. Paul was not speaking from his opinion either but from the Holy Spirit of Christ. The fact that there is so much confusion on this verse because of this effeminate feminist culture is crazy, and only shows pure disorder and disobedience in the body of Christ.
Context is key and it seems that most people in this section are out of it and not actually speaking the real word of God only their opinions and feelings.
Women CAN NOT be pastors, it’s designated only for men, women are to have a gentle quiet spirit and be silent, but that doesn’t mean just never speak ever or prophesy the Word of God to people. There are no women apostles either. His Word is clear and yet you are all making God’s word confusion when the Bible says He is NOT the author of confusion, so..why is this clear verse so confusing?
The body of Christ is all out of order today. Smh. Just do what the word says and get out your feelings, effeminate men and feminist women.
There are so many examples in the Bible of women who had spiritual authority of one sort or another. The woman at the well who talked to Jesus went and proclaimed Him as the Messiah to her neighbors – that is preaching. And Jesus did not stop her. Junia was considered a notable apostle by Paul in Romans. Priscilla (and her husband Acquila) led a house church at their home – when Paul refers to them he always says “Priscilla and Aquila”, giving her precedence. If she did not have an important role, he could have avoided mentioning her. Also, when women corrupt or mislead people, Paul also holds them accountable. If women were not independent beings they could not be held accountable and responsible.
The Bible says that before God there is no male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. But it also does have specific roles designated for men and women within the context of the family, and specifies how masters and slaves, children and parents, etc., should treat each other. It is obvious to anyone that men and women are different physically, but SPIRITUALLY they are equal before God. Paul tells men to honor their wives who are weaker vessels physically but who still have an equal place before God.
Jesus also told his disciples to give to Cesear what is Cesear’s and to God what is God’s. Therefore I think an argument can be made that if one lives in a society where women have very constrained roles, perhaps it is best not to follow the law. Yet Jesus Himself did things that were unheard of at the time – He taught women, such as the Samaritan woman and Mary of Bethany (when Mary of Bethany sits at His feet, that is the position of a disciple to a rabbi, and in that society reserved only for men – yet Jesus welcomes Mary to do so and tells Martha that Mary has chosen the better part). He saved an adulteress from being stoned, though that was the law. And so on.
I think for myself, a key issue is whether ego is involved. If the motive is to sincerely serve God and glorify His kingdom then it is one thing to flout custom. But if the motive is selfish – to gratify one’s own ego or to pander to one’s own foolish pride – then that is a different matter altogether. If a woman has a serious calling from God that is very different than a woman who simply wants to push herself forward. But men have to deal with the same struggles – many pastors are not Godly men though they wear the outer garment of godliness, but they are motivated by other things…
Well said. We have to stop using the things in the bible that we like to follow and follow Jesus. If you have that connection/relationship He will NEVER lead you in the wrong direction. We should never “lean to our own understanding” but that of Jesus Christ. That is how His father sees us, through Jesus’ eyes.
The woman at the well was a witness of what Jesus told her. She was not a pastor or preacher and did not teach or have authority over men in a church.
Priscilla and her husband Aquila took Apollos aside and explained the way of God more perfectly. Priscilla was not a pastor or preacher and did not teach or have authority over men in a church.
The context of Galatians 3:28 is salvation and has nothing to do with anyone’s role in the church.
Basically you are ignoring the plain teaching of scripture, taking scripture out of context and inserting you own personal views over the plain teaching of scripture.
well said, all we need to do is rightly dividing the word of truth
II Timoty 2:15
A little twisting you do goes a long way…like swapping Aquila and his wife’s name. In the Bible his name is always first. It’s the little things like that, we must watch. It takes disregarding scripture plain and simple to allow females to teach and preach.
You completely missed the point
Sorry, the site automatically posted what little I typed without me clicking to reply yet. There were no assigned offices in the early church, because to preach is simply to teach about Jesus gospel. Preaching is not a business it is a commitment to teach about God because of the hope he has provided. It doesn’t teach that Aquilla was a pastor either, fwi. You’re ignoring context to teach a selfish agenda, then hypocritically claim anyone who disagrees with your opinion is ignoring the bible
You have used a lot of your own reasoning in this article. Saying that some churches who hold that women should not preach in the church are inconsistent in that they are not concerned about women wearing a covering on their head. If you look at the scripture the head covering for a woman referred to is not a scarf or some other artificial head covering. It is talking about a woman’s hair being the covering. In the case of the man, it is an artificial covering and not his hair. In fact it clearly states that it is a shame for a man to have long hair like a woman. And that was not for just a short time in history.
Paul’s reasoning for his teaching on women not being pastors or teachers (of men) is NOT based on some things that were happening in the Corinthian church, but upon something much more obvious, going back to the second chapter of Genesis. God Himself set the pattern for what Paul was teaching about this. And that pattern was eternal, not just for a short historical time as you have implied.
According to the scripture, women are encouraged to teach other women and children, but Not to be in a position of usurping authority over men. According to God’s Word, that is a principle which God Himself initiated because of what happened with Adam and Eve. Eve was deceived and yielded to the deception and Adam went along with her. Adam failed by not being a leader in the situation. He was the one that God had commanded to not eat of the forbidden tree and he did not provide the proper leadership for his wife. THIS is the reasoning that Paul provides for his instruction regarding the place of women in the church, not some reasoning about what was going on in Corinth or anywhere else.
So true. I agree with your comments and wanted to piggyback off what you said… We worship the True and Living God in Spirit and in truth. So if it be male or female, as long as they have the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit they are equal and in the sight of God is neither male nor female but spiritual.
I am a woman. It is rebellion for a woman to be a pastor or stand over men and take authority in a church. Rebellion is the sin of witch craft. Woman pastors are leading people into fire and will go there themselves if they dont repent .
As a woman I can preach the gospel and give out gospel tracts and witness. I can not be a bisphop or a pastor, its not right. Fear God. Jesus said to. Most church and people are apostate and they dont know Jesus Christ so they will not enter Gods kingdom. It is a VERY narrow path…
All who see this Obey Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38. Repent, be baptized In the NAME of Jesus Christ not titles, wash away your sins, Acts 22:16, Receive the holy Ghost, evidence of praying in tongues, not same as divers gift tongues, then Jude 20: then pray in the holy Ghost building yourself up 21: keep yourself in the Love of God. Romans 8:26-27 He prays to Gods will for us, searches our heart, helps our infirmities, i can testify this is truth, ive overcome sick just by praying in my spirit. You can sing and pray in Spirit. He is wonderful. You get Power when you receive him. The same God that raised Jesus from the dead living in you. Follow and Keep Jesus commands. 2 Thess. 1:7-9 Jesus is coming back to KILL those who dont know him or obey the gospel. Please know God of the bible. Please….. You Must be Born Again. John 3:3-7. Water, baptism. Spirit , holy Ghost…to enter the kingdom. God does Not Lie . The holy Ghost helps us sanctify, and he is the spirit of truth, the comforter, it is Jesus living in us. One spirit Eph 4:4. Ask God for him … if you dont believe you wont receive him… Jesus said to ask, Luke 11:13.
Please take it serious. We live holy. No once saved always saved sinners prayer lie from the devil. . Read the bible. Lists of those Not Entering the kingdom: 1 Corint. 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19 on, Rev. 21:8….Repent or Perish said Jesus Luke 13:3,Seek God today…. HELL: the fire is Never Quenched and the worm dies Not. Jesus said what you hear in the ear preach from the housetop. Where are you saved men and woman ?? Harvesters to the harvest . the Lake of fire is real. JUDGEMENT DAY IS COMING. This is me loving my neighbors, and hopefully pulling some out of the fire Jude 22-23. Jesus saved my life, literally. We are to be bride of Christ. Goats and tares will be burned up….Judgement day is coming . Are you ready ? Get ready. Brides with oil in our lamps. All said in sincere Love.
It’s sad that a woman would go along with the interpretation that she is restricted from teaching a congregation simply because of who she is. Very little respect for one’s own gender, that has every teaching capability as a man. The church is simply the community of Christians, there are no assigned offices needed to teach about God, nor prescribed in the bible, because preaching isn’t a business. The very first people to preach the gospel were women, sen’t by Jesus himself to tell the apostles. The first church meetings were in homes, without ranks or pulpit’s. Many women are mentioned as teaching men in the old and new testaments. The parts about keeping silent and not exercising authority over a man, we know from historical context to be teaching not to interrupt during lessons and to not argue over who should be considered greater at preaching and leading services. This is the message of salvation to eternal life, no one can afford to restrict anyone available from giving the message to those willing to hear for such a petty reason as sexual differentiation. Women not being allowed to preach is a human made interpretation motivated by male ego, that requires ignorance of other verses that directly contradict that idea.
I agree with you all the way. The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit has no gender therfore when and if a woman preaches in the church it would not be by her will but by the will of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We worship God in spirit and truth not flesh and blood.
Very insightful, Shawn!
I have a few questions? What religion do you practice & what women do you know that would actually live by these standards? Last, who do the women ask questions to when her husband is not involved in the Church?
Linda that is a great point that I have never considered.
Um, the Priest or Pastor…not that hard of a question.
I think it would be more appropriate for such a women to ask an older women in the church, one appointed to teach the women and children.
I try to live by these standards, and Paul is writing to Christian men, not outsiders. If your husband is not involved in the Church you need to ask an elder if you have questions. Paul also counsels us not to marry unbelievers.
How about Jesus Christ (The Word of God)
They ask the pastor. He is the shepard of the church
Many say this context also implies there are to be no female elders. Then what happens to us unmarried women, as Paul also says it is better for the unmarried and widows to remain that way? I believe God Himself will reveal His chosen servants, male or female. He establishes all things and we have many truths yet to be imparted by the Holy Spirit at this time. I just want to share the love and mercy God has shown me and I won’t limit what God can do. 🙂
Obviously you do not believe it is a shame for a man to have long hair? It all boils down to what the serpent said to Eve : yea hath God said? Why should the command against fornication stand more than for women to keep silent?
Maybe I want to be shamed for having long hair…
Or maybe I am just trying to look like Jesus.
Or maybe you have completely misunderstood the textual and cultural contexts of all three verses you allude to.
My brother in law, and two of his three sons have long hair. A nephew in law has longer hair. They are faithful Christian men.
Yahshua (Jesus) didn’t have long hair! Read Revelation 1:13-16 gives a description of Him.
Jesus was a Nazarene. Long hair…. yep!
Sorry, Jesus did not have long hair..only Hollywood’s Jesus has long hair. The busts
and statues excavated from that period overwhelmingly, reflect short cropped hair. A Nazarite was one who suffered shame and reproach, which the long hair was intended to reflect; A Nazarene is a resident from the city of Nazareth.
Are we judging? I do believe God gives us the right to make choices? So it looks like he chooses to have long hair. But one thing for certain, no one has seen Jesus so how do you know what he looks like? JUST ASKING, NOT BEING SMART IF IT SOUNDS LIKE IT. And could it be his strength is in his hair.
…wrong Bible character!
Called into ministry: 2002. United Methodist Church. Seminary, commissioned, 2005. Ordained an Elder in 2009. Have served three churches. Preach and teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God is good, all the time.
Being in those positions gives you authority over men, does it not. Is that biblical?
There are over 600 laws in the Jewish law that people were to follow. Don’t eat certain shell fish, pork, etc. That’s biblical. How about the ones about not going to the synagogue sick or with something like a mangled hand or broken. That is Biblical. It was Biblical that Lot slept with his daughters. It was acceptable practice to stone people. So much more to be said, but will not. People use the term Biblical so inappropriately.
When I was ordained, the Bishop of the UMC of Indiana in the name of Jesus Christ declared me and my other brothers and sisters in Christ to “therefore take authority”. I am the pastor of my church and have been to a number of churches. Most the time, I find men to use this mention in the Bible to want to remain in control of women, to have them be subservient. I always say, if a woman doctor was available to save your life, would you wait to see if a man would do it, or have whomever there before you bleed to death?
I think that the virtuous woman in Proverbs covers your last question. She was well known in the professional world and her husband was known as blessed, because of her. In the home, she understood her place within the family, which was in submission to her husband. So, while those things are permitted in the world, I don’t think that a woman being a doctor to save my life applies to God’s creation order, other than her PREACHING the Good News, which is what we’re ALL required to do, but not necessarily Pastor a flock…
First of all we are under Grace not the Law. If you are practicing in the Office of a Pastor , Elder, Bishop, you are not following the Word of God. Plain and simple.
Sundoulos, you should know that submition is not the same thing as subservience. Nothing is ever stated about the wife in Proverbs that she needs to be subservient to her husband. Submition is required of both spouses, because it is a partnership, so can’t work without cooperation. Submition is simply giving of oneself, not necessarily letting someone else command how things should be, withou equal contrinution from their partner.
lol, what are you teaching if this is your defense for having authority over men? , has jesus come a second time, have you gotten a different gospel from what the apostles taught, who revealed this to you?
Don’t eat certain shell fish, pork, etc. That was Levitical dietary law, OT, Done away with after the Resurrection.
It was Biblical that Lot slept with his daughters. You twisted that. Lot’s daughters got him extremely drunk and forced him. He didnt do it on his own.
I always say, if a woman doctor was available to save your life, would you wait to see if a man would do it, or have whomever there before you bleed to death?
A woman doctor is not a preacher in the congregation. Apples and bananas.
The bible does not tell women to be submissive to all men just their husbands and fathers if she is unmarried. A mother has authority .otherwise the bible wouldn’t not have commanded children to obey both parents.A female judge has authority over men.A female cop can arrest men if they break the law. When it comes to the things of God it is His authority that we must obey and didn’t He place a female shepherd over His people? 1st Chronicles 17v 6 is how God describes those judges and Judges 4.
A female judge has authority over men.A female cop can arrest men if they break the law.
This is humanism. Scripture teaches that women are to be keepers of the home and the teach the younger women at home to love their husbands and take care of their children. The women that werent married were spending their time concentrating on serving God. How can a woman be a judge or cop and spend all their time taking care of the home/family.
Who are we to judge who GOD calls? Has it ever occurred to any one that there are books if the bible that are missing? Has it ever occurred to anyone that the writers are all men and they, not Jesus said women should submit. When I read my Bible and Jesus is speaking the text is in “red”. I have not seen him be discriminating again to women. Let’s not forget that just because there are no more books being added to the bible that God is not still speaking and inspiring men and women. I would want to be taught by one who is ordained by God be it man or woman. We cannot tell a woman that she was not called by God. That would be her cross to bear and yours if you condemn her and she was called. While everyone have these concerns why not just ask the holy spirit to guide you and Jesus to give you the wisdom to understand His Word. We have to stop playing Church and become the church. GOD is coming back for the church (which is us his children), not the building in which we attend. GOD BLESS.
We are to judge who God calls by the word He has given us and the word He has given us plainly teaches that a woman is not to teach or usurp authority over the man and that men are to be the leaders in the church. The only people who deny this are those who have already made up their mind to believe what they want to in spite of what God has told us through His word.
So are you sayingredients God is not still speaking to people? Paul didn’t say Jesus said, he said “I”. You are absolutely right in saying “who God called” and that was the basis of my message. I am not going to judge someone who said they were called by God. Only one who knows is that person and God. I have made up my mind to listen and let the holy spirit teach me, not man.
Nice try but all of Gods word is His Word, not just a Red Colored ink translation you picked up at the Local Christian bookstore.
if you have missing texts that support your argument, then provide it, stop hiding behind assumption.. we act according to what we know and what we have been revealed by God. the law of Moses was enough until the revelation of Jesus Christ, and unless you have a new revelation, I’d advice you stick to what is known to be backed by truth…
And what IF her husband is WRONG?? And she knows this, by “seeking her OWN faith with fear and trembling”?? Because, GOD through the Holy Spirit reveals the word to us. Like the blogger says.. We are the body of the church. Jesus is the head. I find it remarkable, you believe a WOMAN isn’t permitted to question her husband’s interpretation of GOD’S word??
My wife doesn’t always agree with me and she says so when she doesn’t and I am glad she does. The Holy Spirit speaks to her and I . It would be wierd to me if she was going to another man for spiritual giidance though. Neither of us do that anyway. We pray together and depend on the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.
First of all we are to Follow Christ at all times, by the Way Jesus Christ is always first Luke 14:25-35, this goes for both the husband and wife. If one or both are not following The Lord they are both in sin. If the husband isn’t following Christ, the wife should continue to be obedient to the Lord at all cost. Her husband didn’t die on the cross. Jesus did.
Well said ‘when we come together in a small place, sharing the word of God’ it’s doesn’t matter whether we’re male or female ” Church is where ever one stand and share the word of God. It’s not just on a Sunday morning, let also remember that gifts were given out to all believers who received Jesus Christ as their primary Savior.the Bible did not say male only’ but all who believe that he Christ Jesus is the son of God.
Ummm? Jesus Christ should not be your primary Savior, he should be your ONLY Savior.
If Woman can only ask their husband, that means the Preacher Can’t Teach Married Woman.
They should ask their husbands if they have questions about what is preached.
And how does this go if your spouse is an immature Christian/new Christian? I have been a Christian since I was very young and was brought up to love God, obey his word, etc… My husband although was a Christian when we met, he was not actively obeying his commands. Since we have been together, he has grown by leaps and bounds, but is not at my level of knowledge and being led by the Spirit. So, how am I to ask him what something means?
I need to be more clear. Scripture says that the Teachers of Scripture must be ready to be questioned on Scripture. So If a woman Can’t ask anyone But her Husband. That means only her husband can Preach to her. Now how stupid is that?
What is the role of the Pastor or preacher as your referring too? Read the Pastoral Epistles, by the way for all who keep referring to the Old Testament the biggest problem is the Church didn’t start until the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came.
The church means believers. Believers are both men and women. No discrimination.
I appreciate the simple way that you laid out this subject in your comment, Shawn.
Of course, what if a married couple were not Christians, the woman becomes a Christian, the man against becoming one and not responsible spiritually – are you saying she is not to ask any other man a question…just spiritual questions or any question. Not logical and this happens a great deal.
I totally agree with Jeremy. There’s not only a place female pastors in the church but a great need for them. Has anyone ever taken into consideration that Paul was speaking to an all male audience. There were no formal female pastors or ordained women ministers. Women had little value at the time, but Paul gave women recognition, support & remembrance while Jesus gave them a new found Liberty in the church. But if there were females in his audience I suspect Paul would have addressed them differently. Given today’s society and the state of the church I find that there is not only a place for women in Ministry such as pastors and chaplains but a great need for them. With the pedophilia and sexual abuse charges in the Catholic church as well evidenced and in every other denomination it is time that we get Beyond the scriptural power play between men and , which appears be subject to interpretation anyway by just about every denomination , and see the rationale for female pastors. A male Pastor cannot and will not meet all the needs of females of the congregation and they shouldn’t try. There are some issues and situations that are better discussed with female clergy. It’s just good common sense for the Church and the pastor . We need to focus on who our audience is today and how we can best meet their needs. Unfortunately due to the many types of abuse in our churches which seems to defy everything the Bible teaches there will be people who will never be won by a male pastor. And, unfortunately, there will be people who will never step foot into a church where there is a male pastor because the trust is lost. Don’t we always say we need to reach the lost at any cost. What is the worst that could happen if there is a female Pastor? More souls will get saved, fed, clothed, people visited in hospitals, in prisons, more missionaries, etc etc etc. Really, when you think about it, the worst that could happen has happened and done by male pastors. Open your eyes and your heart and see the wisdom of female pastors on your staff. it can add a layer of protection for male pastors, the church, and comfort to those members and Families who may find it more comfortable to meet with a female Pastor than a male. And there’s more good news. It is not a sin to be a female pastor. There are female pastors today and will continue to be until the return of Christ. The Bible says his word will not return to him void. His word is genderless, and there is no indication in Scripture that it’s more powerful if it comes out of the mouth of a man.. it’s the word we are to receive no matter whose mouth it comes out of.. given the current state of crises our world is in right now, I would rather be guilty of helping a female Pastor reach the lost then stand before God and say I did not because she was a woman. Luke 9 verse 50 and John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Well spoken 👍🏽
the question is what is the female preacher teaching if she cannot obey the scripture, what need is such a preacher?, you explain away Paul’s instructions on women having authority, but embrace his teachings on other aspects? what is your justification?.. technically all of Paul’s admonitions can be explained away by using the same context approach as is used to disregard his instructions on female authority in the church, more so, it is not for everyone to teach, and also the reasons are in the end made up, like that women were forbidden because of education. the apostles save for Paul were not educated men… This is what showed the power of God. Women are to be in submission as is the will of God. There is a massive decline in the regard for the will of God because of arguments like this that disregard the authority of the teachings of the apostle Paul, for Men/ Women who cannot even substantiate the annointing on their ministry
Nobody is casting out devils these days. They were not in the church, they were in the streets.
So just how much of the Bible do we remove because we don’t believe it is cultural? Do we start by removing all the verses that have to do with men? That would take out nearly the entire Bible. Do with continue with taking out everything that offends someone? How much of the Bible would be left? Pretty much nothing.
My question to you would be –Are you assuming that saints are led by the Spirit only in a formal setting ? That is what you last sentence seems to imply. Am I misunderstanding your words? I think whenever people are gathered together to praise God and study His Word we should be led by His Holy Spirit, and know that His Holy Spirit is always with us, any time, any place. So I am not quite sure what your implying.
👍🏽
what if the woman has no husband, i.e. single, widowed who does she ask.
A man, nor a husband in the end can stand before God at the Judgement seat of Christ, for a wife nor for any female, he can only stand for himself just like a Fe- male or Wo- man can only stand for herself and the last I checked, Jesus commissioned all of his followers to: Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and Of the Holy Ghost. ( Matthew 28:19)
I choose Jesus Alex!
Wow, you nailed it. Thanks to the Holy Spirit who gives us wisdom and understanding.
You are also out of order and not dividing the Word properly. Your premise on this issue is to make women or feminists feel good.
Galatians 3:28 states “There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male or w, for all of you are one in Christ Jesu.” (Words of Paul)
One man doing most or all of the teaching is not even close to being biblical. Elders, gifted teachers, as well as others may teach but must be willing to be tested on the spot by the rest of the congregation by questions and scripture.
First, let me say thanks for the post – I appreciate it. In many contexts, the question of male / female is moot. When “church” happens in some settings, it doesn’t matter.
But, the biblical issue isn’t, in my opinion, about whether women can teach / speak in church (however it is defined) – it is the issue of qualifications for elders. And whatever “form” of church one attends (small group, house, small local body, mega-church)has some form of leadership (some good, some not-sThe biblical issue isn’t, in my opinion, about whether women can teach in a church – it is the issue of qualifications for elders. And whatever “form” of church one attends has some form of leadership (some good, some not-so-good). it’s not an issue of “silence in the church” but protection of the body. I hate to say “who decides the doctrinal teachings of the church” (even tho that’s what I think it is) because the word “‘doctrine” has taken on unnecessary baggage (after all, what you wrote is “doctrine” – doctrine in itself ain’t bad – it’s what we do with it). So, the NT clearly describes elders – whether house church or bigger church doesn’t matter. Who is qualified? I’m not advocating one position or another here, but with “church” comes “leadership”, with “leadership” comes “qualifications”, with “qualifications” comes the question you asked. In most settings, I agree – the issue is moot. But some important – and very biblical – situations, it’s gotta be wrestled with. I’m hesitant to say the protection and decision of the “doctrinal teachings of the church” (even tho that’s what I think it is) because the word “‘doctrine” has taken on unnecessary baggage (after all, what you wrote is “doctrine” – doctrine in itself ain’t bad – it’s what we do with it). So, the NT clearly describes elders – whether house church or bigger church doesn’t matter. Who is qualified? I’m not advocating one position or another here, but with “church” comes “leadership”, with “leadership” comes “qualifications”, with “qualifications” comes the question you asked. In most settings, I agree – the issue is moot. But some important – and very biblical – situations, it’s gotta be wrestled with. Hopefully, graciously!!!
Thanks for letting me respond. Hope it sounds as gracious as intended
Great input.
Of course, aside from Scripture (just speaking pragmatically here), I know many women who would do a much better job deciding on doctrinal and practical issues than many so-called elders. I am not saying this means we automatically set aside Scripture, but maybe we need fewer (or no) elders in many gatherings.
Great! Now we do not need to Bible!
Most do not believe it anyway. We all have a heart condition! We need God in every part of our lives. God gave his Word so we have His ways to life. I don’t get it!
Wonderful!
God does not call the qualified, God Qualifies the Called!!! It does not matter if we are a woman or a man. It is all about the relationship, wisdom and knowledge given to those who are Called by Christ. The Church is actually made up with women. There are more women in the Church then men. However, I do not think it matters to God if we are a man or woman. In Acts He sent out a mandate for all Christian to Spread His Word. How can we get to those if we find ourselves with someone who would like to know about Christ and we say, “My husband is not with me to answer any questions about God, so I cannot help you?” Or, “I apologize but I cannot answer that mainly because I am a woman and we are not allowed to speak.” Or, “I cannot talk to you because we are not allowed to do so, but maybe if I see you again and there is a man with me he can explain.”
God help us it that situation does happen and someone actually say that.
I love your answer Linda. The Holy Spirit has imparted great truths to me from the Word along with visions and dreams. I wonder where I fit in because I never married or had children and I have abandoned all to follow Christ, focusing on His love and mercy. I don’t have a husband to ask questions nor do I want one as the Apostle Paul also said it was better to remain unmarried. What happens to us then? I don’t think Jesus would stand for this argument veiwing how He rebuked men over Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdalene was the first witness to His rising from the dead. I believe God will use any willing heart. God bless you. 🙂
There are many ways to serve God, and Teaching is just one part… there is caring for people which is what most of the female deacons were praised for in the bible.. But most importantly for women who want to teach, Older women are allowed to teach younger women…. and the criteria is women who have lived in submission…
Now again teaching is not the only ministry, but there are guidelines for those that want to go into it.
Thank you Jeremy for the post.. it help a lot 🙂
The following is a blatantly wrong statement in your post:
“First, there are numerous times in the book of Acts and in some of Paul’s other letters where women appear to be speaking in the gatherings of the church with the approval of others, so whatever Paul is saying here, it does not seem to be a rule which he himself universally followed (Acts 16:14-15; Acts 18:26).”
Please read carefully Acts 16:14-15; Acts 18:26 and ask yourself where are women speaking “in the church.”
Acts 16:13 says “we went outside the gate to the riverside.” In Acts 18, it says they “took him aside.” This was a private conversation held after a synagogue meeting, not public teaching to a Christian congregation.
You also say: “there is some debate about whether Paul was describing his own preference and practice, or whether he was giving instructions for all churches everywhere throughout time to follow as well. ”
Yes, this is true, and ask yourself which is more likely:
a) The Scripture is unclear on this point
b) The Scripture is crystal clear, however, Christians today influenced by feminism don’t like it and try to get around it.
For example, what part of the following suggests that this teaching isn’t for “all churches everywhere”:
1. “she is to remain quiet. FOR ADAM WAS FORMED FIRST, THEN EVE…”
2. “but should be in submission, AS THE LAW ALSO SAYS (i.e. the Torah).”
Paul appeals to CREATION and SCRIPTURE as the reason for not allowing women to speak/teach.
“Furthermore, few churches who use 1 Corinthians 14:34 to defend the idea that it is wrong for women to preach in church also apply Paul’s instructions that women should wear head coverings (1 Corinthians 11:2-10).”
Yes, so disobedience in one area should justify further disobedience in other areas. I ask again, what’s more likely:
a) head-coverings are not for “all churches everywhere,”even though Paul says “If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, NOR DO THE CHURCHES OF GOD. ” 1 Cor. 11:16,”
b) Christian feminists don’t like the teaching that “a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head” and try to get around it.
“It becomes a non-issue.”
I beg to differ. Over the last forty year, (since second-wave feminism) the church in North America has been on a steady DECLINE – in numbers, soundness of doctrine and discernment. It is a hardly a non-issue and I think one could easily argue that adding women into the mix as teacher/pastor/elder has made matters worse rather than better.
Christianity has struggled with the role of women in the church, ever since John the Baptist was beheaded.
Looked at one way, Paul prohibits women from doing anything. Looking from a slightly different perspective, Paul requires women to do everything.
Overall, the strongest case is that Paul compromised with socio-cultural norms, to the extent that they did not directly conflict with the teachings and practices of Jesus. (How many people realize that 70% of the people that Paul names in leadership positions are women?)
What is blatently obvious, is that once Constantine legalized Christianity, women were banned from the church leadership.
Interesting connection with Constantine. He lived several hundred years after Paul, of course, but it is interesting to study the role of women in the church prior to Constantine.
Wow! I rather listen to Constantine more that Paul….
Christianity has never struggled with the woman’s role in the church. Those who would like to impose the world’s philosophies into the church are the ones who are struggling.
One could easily argue many things, but that does nothing to prove the case.
Excellent scriptural observations JJ
JJ,
I think the big issue is how you are defining “church.” You seem to assume a definition of church which I do not hold to. I do not consider a synagogue meeting to be the only time people are “in the church.” Also, I do not believe that the North American church is in decline. The institutional aspect of church might be in decline, but it is pure scapegoating to blame this on women. Numerous other aspects of church are in rapid growth and revival.
Jeremy,
“I think the big issue is how you are defining ‘church.’ You seem to assume a definition of church which I do not hold to.”
Jeremy, with all due respect, I don’t “assume” any definition for church, rather I seek to understand how Scripture defines it. What you haven’t established is that your definition of “church” is Biblically sound. When you say,
“I understand the church to be the people of God who follow Jesus into the world and so a gathering of the church occurs whenever and wherever believers gather, whether it is two or three around a dinner table, five or six in a living room, seven or eight at a coffee shop, or larger gatherings in some other building.”
This is where we disagree. The word “church” in the original text is “ecclesia” and is best translated by the English word “assembly.” Ecclesia was historically “the name given to the governmental assembly of the city of Athens, duly convoked (called out) by proper officers and possessing all political power including even juridical functions.” (Encyclopedia Britannica)
A Biblical “assembly” is a community of believers with a recognizable leadership, regular gathering times, a specific location, and who formally meet for worship, teaching, edification, fellowship and missions. These points are seen in the following verses:
1. Teaching/Location/Worship/Missions – “Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas…While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul…Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off” Acts 13:1-2
2. Gathering – “And when they were come, and had gathered the church together” Acts 14:27
3. Fellowship – “And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church” Acts 15:4
4. Sending – “then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas” Acts 15:22
5. Worship/Gathering – “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread…There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered.” Acts 20:7
6. Leadership – “And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.” Acts 20:17
Notice that in Acts 14:27 and 20:7, the church gathers together. This is what Paul has in mind when he uses the expression in 1 Cor. 11:17-33, “WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER”:
“But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER it is not for the better but for the worse…For, in the first place, WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER AS A CHURCH, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part…WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat…So then, my brothers, WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER to eat, wait for one another… if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home—so that WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER it will not be for judgment. About the other things I will give directions when I come.”
This “coming together” is in the context of collectively partaking in communion. Now is this something you imagine believers doing causally with a few Christian friends at a coffee shop? And it’s precisely at these times when Paul states “In all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches.” 1 Cor. 14:33-34.
So Jeremy, I can’t see how your definition of “church” represents anything described in the New Testament.
JJ,
I didn’t intend to imply that you assume a definition of church.
I meant to say that you seem to assume that you and I have the same definition of church. We clearly don’t.
So when you attack my views, you are attacking them based on your definition of church, which is a definition I do not accept. Therefore, your areas of dispute are logically invalid.
If you and I are talking about the best fruit, and you are thinking “apple” but I am thinking “orange” but we both keep saying “fruit” the discussion will get nowhere.
So also with church. Before anybody can have a proper discussion about church, they either need to agree on a definition for church, OR at the very least, understand what the other person has in mind when they say “church.” It’s okay to disagree with their view, but you at least need to understand it before you can have a conversation with them.
It seems to me that you do not understand how I define church. You also seem to imply that I have not carefully studied the particular words or passages used to define and describe church in the New Testament. To the contrary, I wrote a book which summarizes (it doesn’t contain everything) a study on this very subject. And my study draws its conclusions from the New Testament and cultural background studies of that era, not from the Encyclopedia Britannica.
Anyway, my book is called “Skeleton Church.” There are various ways of obtaining it on this website, if you truly want to learn how I define church.
J.J., we do not all understand this the same. We also have Bibles and have read and studied them in depth, and have studied the Scriptures in the original languages. We have also studied the cultural background of the time and people who wrote them as well as the people to whom they were written. You have your understanding. But many others have other understandings. This may have something to do with the fact that the are tens of thousands of Christian denominations in the world.
We are not saying that your understanding is wrong. If that’s the way you understand it, then live accordingly. However, arguing Scripture and shouting Scripture (that’s what writing it in all caps indicates) is not profitable or becoming to any of us who follow Jesus. Loving God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves is profitable and becoming. Attempting to get others to agree with you is pointless. Loving the unlovable in Jesus’ name, spending all we have on behalf of others is looks like Jesus.
I am no Scholar but,I believe God has the power to change prophecy the way that he did with Hezekiah,his intentions for a perfect people in the beginning changed due to disobedience so who’s to say our men or intended leadership has overall been disobedient,and many women have been forced to lead and in that leading women have been more obedient.We all need each other if my husband was a pastor and I’m his help mate if he for some reason can’t teach or preach who else other than myself would be the closest to him.I don’t believe GOD changes he’s always the same but,he does have the power to make changes and he does not need our permission to do so,instead of debating back and forth over our version of the Bible we should be sure we have the Holy Spirit and real relationship with GOD because he will reveal to us his truths but,please know he’s not the author of confusion
In order for God’s authority to be established on earth it must first be established in His church, there is no compromise.
In going to Eve instead of Adam the devil usurped the authority that God had installed in the garden in its entirety. The head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. We should remember that Authority came before Grace. In grace all are equal before God, in authority all are not equal, that is God’s way, who are we to question Him? Adam was given authority, Eve was his helper.
When the serpent came to Eve, he was standing upright and he could speak, he was the fallen angel and he preached equality “..you will be like God…” he is still preaching the same thing via those that stand upright and can speak.
Jesus laid down his majesty and in obedience and submission He paid the ultimate price for us.
How difficult can it be for anyone to cover their heads in church? is it really such a sacrifice? Where is the obedience? where is the submission? Are we the church of Christ or the church of Eve? Paul says it’s for the angels, he doesn’t say it’s for men. Worldly men and even some so called godly men may well lord it over women but it isn’t for them, it’s for the angels. Women can put themselves back in the garden and say to the angels that they understand God’s authority, they can stand in obedience and submission and in effect stand in place of Eve and do the opposite of what she did. If I was a women I wouldn’t bother contending this, I would simply edge my bets and cover my head, it is after all what the scripture says. It is in fact a huge privilege that belongs to women and not to man. If we don’t preach this and reinstate it in the church we will continue to give the serpent the same foothold he had in the garden, it really is that simple.
Terry Jones,
Great response here!
I will be interested to see your response on women preaching, the subject at hand, I can almost predict that you stay in the bible teachings as much as possible!
Amen & Amen Terry.
I also wish to add if I may, that the Word of God is settled in heaven forever! Jesus declares in Matt. 24:35 (kjv) that, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”. I therefore believe that a vital scripture to hang all these scriptural debating on is, Rom. 3:4 (kjv) “God forbid: let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged”.
Submission is not an act of surrender after you’re proven wrong, (that’s yielding to correction). Submission is truly shown when the individual is willing to give way, and put aside their own way/thought/opinion for the other, even when they think they’re right. It is with that, that I beseech all my brothers and sisters who are yet to submit yourselves to the written Word of God, and refrain from leaning to thy own understanding, so that in ALL thy ways you’ll acknowledge Him (Jesus our Lord & Master), and allow Him to direct our path.
Heaven’s richest blessings to you all.
I’ve had exactly the same thoughts as you over the past few months having read the same Bible as you clearly have. The church has been following its own desires for years, cherry picking scripture to suit. Head covering for example is not a contentious subject but there are those that insist it is with the result that very few women bother with it any more. The church is being misled into believing that God is restrictive and old fashioned and Paul although a saint was actually a misogamist with modern man knowing better than him.
What you say JJ is so obvious. The problem is most men and women like to expound their own views and appear clever. These self appointed prophets are unfortunately influenced by something other than God with the result that you will find yourself casting pearl before swine.
Being a Christian is not an easy ride, it is not all joy and peace. There are sacrifices and some difficult choices we have to make. It’s human nature to look for an easy way and that sadly is the way of the church at present. However, God knows what He is doing and things will change in His church whether we are comfortable with it or not.
Tell that to a Joyce Meyer, or a myriad of churches that God has sent women pastors to. People are less interested in the church because there are football games on Sunday, little league games, and people who spend too much time condemning than being inclusive. Feminism has nothing to do with God’s call in a person’s life. And if a man is a man of God, no matter who does the teaching or preaching and understands God’s call on a person’s life, male nor female should matter.
So adding women has helped to cause the church to fail? Women have always been in the church just not in a position of authority because of what Paul said.Where does authority come from?God. He said that the powers that exist were ordained by Him.Didn’t He harden Pharaoh’s heart to demonstrate not only to the I Israelites but to the Egyptians and other races of people as well His Power?What many people forget is the Power of God and it’s something that supersedes any other power on earth as well as heaven. Scripture teaches us that God is the head of Jesus Christ and Jesus is head of both man and the church while the husband is head of his own wife. So if the head of the church used women to spread the gospel either through witnessing or prophesying what can man do to stop it?Nothing. Didn’t Jesus speak salvation to a sinful woman at a well and she witnessed to her Samaritan city and was credited for bringing some of them to Christ?John4v39. That was power in action right there because it wasn’t the custom for Jewish men to even speak to women in public no less a sinful woman. Women in leadership do not hold the record for ruining the church because plenty of men in leadership have done that too. So let’s tell the truth and shame the devil and know that God can use any vessel to further His works and His son can too.
Amen! It’s very hypocritical to blame ONE sex for all the church’s issues. God calls both men and women to preach His word. I’d rather listen to God Himself on these issues than Paul, because God’s word is the real answer to the controversy.
Acts 2:17-18 “This is what I will do in the last days, God says: ‘I will pour out my Spirit on everyone. Your sons and daughters will proclaim my message; your young men will see visions, and your old men will have dreams. Yes, even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will proclaim my message.'”
I love the way GOD used you in your previous comment,God has all power and whatever or whomever he decides to keep,throw away,or change in order for his people to be saved he has the power to do so,he did say he would take the foolish things of the world to shame the wise,we need to stop trying to think for God and pray for his will to be done in all of our lives.
Matthew 20: 25But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave—…
Matthew 23:8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.c
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
c 8 Or brothers and sisters
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
***** Romans 6:13 Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Luke 12: 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating(sinned willingly). 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating( sinned because they were deceived).
Now after reading Luke we Know that Adam was in more Trouble that Eve in the eyes of G-d.
Here is one where Jesus himself gave a women the Right to take on a Man’s Role……Luke 10:38 Now as they went on their way, Jesusd entered a village. And a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving. And she went up to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” 41 But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things, 42 but one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her.”
How about the fact that Peter had 4 daughters and all them went out and Preached and seeded churches. And in the end Lead their own Churches.
one of the best replies Ive read so far
Wow! After reading all these statements about this topic, I can honestly say I am more confused now about it! I am a happy married woman and I gladly submit to my husband only because he loves me like Christ loved the church.
Priscilla,
I don’t think this post had anything to do with the husband-wife relationship.
I have a couple of questions regarding this.
1 Corinthians 14:34-38
is it possible one of the reasons Paul was telling women to be silent and ask their husbands questions was simply him explaining basic classroom behavior? they had never been permitted to be taught in a formal setting before this and needed basic instruction on behavior they was expected in a class/learning environment. Paul would not have included the men in this rule because they already knew how to act.
Also that women not being as familiar with old Jewish text may not have known specific things which were sometimes referred to In study and therefore to keep the group progressing forward instead of stalled Over explaining text to women the men already knew forward and backward were told to ask at home?
I mean giving background again and again to the old Jewish text could have easily hindered them from experiencing Christ wouldn’t it ?
Or is it possible due to the following verses Paul was being a little sarcastic. It wouldn’t be the first time we see sarcastic questions meant to make a point in Paul’s writings speaking against some false teachings that sprung up In the church of Corinth. considering the verses we find back in chapter 11 concerning women, prophesying, and head coverings it would seem Paul contradicts himself within just a few chapters if He here actually forbids women.
And speaking of head coverings watchman Née has some writings on Corinthians 11. It basically deals with having an understanding of the government God has set up for His followers to be under in Christ. I would have to read it a few more times but I believe when he says government he is talking about the restoration of our original relationship with God and everything being in its rightful place. Men not covering their heads shows they accept not only their authority, but also their responsibility. A woman covering her head while prophesying also shows she also understands this government. It in know way restricts her from speaking. She shows acceptance of her submissive role. Accepting basic structure of creation was something Adam and Eve both failed to do in their respective roles. That is the bare bones gist of His thoughts on the matter and I may have misread something or read into it wrong. Anyone that wants to give feed back please do.
so if anyone is interested in this study please go to this site. The article is called
Head coverings
Love one another
Watchman Née.
www3.telus.net › trbrooks
Wendy,
I think you raise good points. There is a lot about the context of this passage in 1 Corinthians that we simply do not know. I do think that in many places in 1 Corinthians, Paul was being sarcastic. Maybe this is another such place.
I have not read that article by Watchman Nee, but will try to look it up.
Wendy,
A general principle is that we don’t skip over what is clear and obvious and reach for what is less clear and less obvious. Theorizing endless hypothetical interpretations when the author gives you the reason for his teaching is not the path to truth. What Christians are called to do is obey the God’s Word, not look for ways to circumvent it. Notice that your very action models what Eve did in the Garden of Eden in listening to Satan saying “has God said…” and ironically demonstrates precisely why men are called to lead and teach.
And there are better authors than Watchman Née on headcoverings, The symbol of headcovering displays that what was lost in the Fall, when the order of headship was reversed, has been set right by the redemptive work of Christ.
“Paul contradicts himself within just a few chapters if He here actually forbids women”
I believe a better interpretation of 1 Cor. 11:5 is that the women were attending church gatherings and were sitting in the presence of praying and prophesying.
Dear JJ
I never knew asking questions on texts of the Bible was trying to circumventing it. I never knew my asking questions about unclear text using history, culture, and tradition as a framework for them was akin to me playing the role of Eve conversing with satan. You see the problem is these issues are not clearly explained because we have certain instances where Paul says not to speak and others where Paul encourages women to actively participate in church. So no I don’t see this as a clearly defined issue. I think you me mistake me for a feminist determined to place woman in the pulpit no matter what. instead if a person seeking the truth in scripture. Perhaps you are guilty of trying to circumvent the issue if you can not see the contradiction in Paul’s writing and refuse to consider maybe Paul was giving instructions for different situations. Or if you can’t see sometimes Paul did use sarcasm to gently with humor show people their errors. See my questions are not to civumvent anything. They reflect my desire to not simply know scripture but my desire to understand it. I can know it by memorizing it, but the answer “because the Bible says'” on an issue like this that us not one if faith is simply not good enough. We are instructed to study the word and test the spirits. Not blindly accept tradition.
You really can not discount the fact Paul was sarcastic in many of his letters to bring out a point.
It is apparent you did not even read my post completely or even bother skimming Watchman Nee’s article on head coverings. It was all about roles of creation. Here and only Paul does give reasons. But they are not reasons for a woman to be silent. They are only reasons for the head covering if she wants to speak. The watchman née article is all about positions we hold in Gods government. Also how grace and restoration shows the importance if upholding these roles of Gods the government of God started at creation. Née argues it’s not just a duty but a privilege for a woman to wear the head covering. I am not sure why you told me the same thing is stated unless you only saw what you didn’t like in my question and stopped reading. So I beg you if you wish to criticize please read what you speak against first. If there are people that you think explain better than watchman née I would gladly read those commentaries but you gave no names.
Remember as Jeremy says we must define church with God’s definition, not mans. I think that is where most go wrong. Church absolutely and exclusively thought of by most in terms of the system man invented not by the plan God had for it. When we think of it in God’s terms things become clearer. If church is people making the body of Christ if half of the body is mute a great deal if wisdom is lost.
Wendy.
I have not said any of this in anger or a bad spirit. However I did have great difficulty with your response to my questions. I truly hope you do not equate everyone that ask questions the way you did me it was kind of bad form to do that to someone asking a Christian site biblical questions. Perhaps you could have made the comparison if I would have asked an atheist feminist blog those questions. But not when I ask a Christian site. Please rethink how you word things if you talk to people who are not Christians. They will think you mean which I am sure is not the case. Remember questions are not the problem. How we react to the questions is the problem.
Very well said, Wendy.
JJ,
Yes, but what is obvious to one is not so obvious to another. Cultural and historical background studies have shown time and time again that an obvious teaching to one generation in one culture is actually completely wrong. This is why we study historical and cultural backgrounds, so that we can raise questions as Wendy is doing here.
Dude, you know how to tackle the hard ones. My personal view on this, which I’d love to talk to you privately about when we get together, is submitted to community. I think this is one way that the church isn’t as fluid as you picture. Of course whenever two or three are gathered in His name, it’s church on some level. However, the protection of community and mutual submission seems to need a local church context–not talking about bricks and mortar, but the living stones Paul, Peter, and Hebrews speak of. This means that I’m not a “free agent,” but a minister of the gospel who is asked to even submit my hermeneutic to community. Does that make sense? Way to go launching this discussion!
Thanks. Yes, this is a hot topic. I probably never would have written on it if someone hadn’t submitted the question. I feel inadequate to write on the topic for numerous reasons. One being that I’m not a woman. Ha!
Anyway, yes, I agree that the active church involves community based on the teaching of the Apostles. I don’t think I have endorsed “free agent” Christianity anywhere, though I suppose some of my writings could be understood that way.
This issue is one of several that frequently shines a light on the unlovely side of some religious people, people on both sides of the issue. Suggesting that one and only one understanding is the only correct understanding of the issue and that those who see it otherwise are heretics, listen to Satan, or similar language certainly looks like something, but it sure doesn’t look like Jesus.
BTW, Jesus drastically elevated the status of women, which undoubtedly shocked the religious folks of his day, the ones responsible for convincing the Romans to execute him. Jesus had the wrong beliefs. He thought he was the Son of God. He unapologetically broke their rules and paid the price for it.
Great input, Sam. I think one thing many miss is what you point out … that Jesus and Paul drastically elevated the role of women. One wonders if they would have elevated them even further if they were ministering today.
Wendy my dear, nothing I said was spoken in anger or with hostility. Perhaps you interpreted it that way because of the limitation of communicating in writing. However, I endeavor to speak with a manly frankness that I think some in our politically correct, metro-sexual culture find abrasive. For that I make no apologies.
What I said regarding Watchman Nee is based on the fact that, though he had some good points, he ultimately is the founder of what has for a long time been considered a Christian cult – http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2694-watching-out-for-watchman-nee. They may be emerging out of that status; however, a better resource for headcoverings is the popular “Believers Bible Commentary” by William MacDonald (http://www.amazon.ca/Believers-Bible-Commentary-William-MacDonald/dp/0785212167). His commentary will also answer your other questions about women’s roles in the church.
“Perhaps you are guilty of trying to circumvent the issue if you can not see the contradiction in Paul’s writing ”
No, I can see the “apparent” contradictions; however, these are my assumptions for dealing with contradictions:
1. Paul is intelligent – he didn’t make silly mistakes
2. Paul is not schizophrenic, he doesn’t contradict himself
3. Don’t skip over what is clear and obvious and reach for what is less clear and less obvious – so when definitive statements are made, use them as a basis to interpret “apparent” contradictions.
When you bring up the points that:
“men already knew [the Scriptures] forward and backward”
“Paul would not have included the men in this rule because they already knew how to act.”
First of all, these are mere theories that are not obviously true in the context. Why would we think that the mostly non-Jewish Corinthian men, whom were generally illiterate and uneducated, were experts in the Bible or knew how to act any better than the women in a formal teaching environment? You may not be a feminist, but you certainly take a feminist reading of history – that men have always had huge advantages over women.
What I said before is that Paul made definitive statements where he links his teaching to CREATION – not specific circumstances, local customs, or any socio-historic issues. And he does this twice, speaking to different groups of Christians, which emphasizing the point. Paul says,
1. Women are to remain quiet and not teach – because Eve was deceived in the Garden of Eden and the concern is that Satan will use women in like manner to teach false doctrine to the church. (1 Tim 2:14).
2. Women are to learn in submission – because this is in keeping with God’s instruction in the Torah. He is likely referring the Gen. 3:16 “…Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you,” where God reminds Eve that she fell into deception because she didn’t follow the pattern of headship God had established in creation. This links to headcoverings, because they symbolize that God’s original pattern of headship has been re-established in the church.
“You really can not discount the fact Paul was sarcastic in many of his letters to bring out a point.”
Wendy, perhaps you can explain where you see in 1 Cor 14:34-38 that Paul is being sarcastic.
V.34 Paul states his teaching and the reason for it
V.35 Paul clarifies that “to speak in church” also includes asking questions – so silent really means silent.
V.36-37 Paul states a very serious truth – if you claim to be a spiritual Christian, you should acknowledge that his teachings in Chapter 14 are a “command from the Lord.” This is about as far away from sarcasm as I can imagine.
V.38 Paul states that if one doesn’t acknowledge his teaching as authoritative, then that person should be considered as one having no authority to speak on spiritual things (he has in mind false teachers or church rebels who would oppose his teaching).
Frankly Wendy, I’m not sure if Paul could have stated his position any stronger and with more gravity.
“If church is people making the body of Christ if half of the body is mute a great deal if wisdom is lost.”
If I understand this sentence, you’re concerned that a church without women publicly speaking, teaching, preaching, and exercising authority would be missing something important. Well, that’s easily proven false. There are more women over the last forty years (since second wave feminism) involved in public church ministry than in the history of the church. Are we better for it? I would argue that the church is in its weakest state it’s ever been in Western society. If adding women into the mix helped, then the church should be roaring along. However, sadly, it isn’t.
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
Anything I could say (and there was a great deal in my mind) will apparently just be twisted by you so you can argue your point instead of actually read.
So I wish you well in your walk. I hope you will continue to grow and flex your spiritual muscles. I tend to think that it’s not women entering leadership roles that has caused the decline of the church but rather tradition and doctrine over ruling the search truth in the scriptures.
Much love to you. Your ability to quote and memorize scripture is a good thing I am sure it’s handy. I always have to look things up and read the chapter surrounding them so I don’t take it our of context if I am trying to make a point.
Wendy,
Thank you so much for your loving and gracious response. I don’t think JJ was angry, but as I mentioned to him, his comment sounded angry, and I was afraid that you would get scared off or offended. Please stick around. I love your insights (and learning from you!).
Agreed!
Sorry to Bust Your Bubble……Not. But How many Men have Taught False Doctrine in the Church……David Koresh, Charles Manson, Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard, Sun Myung Moon, David “Moses” Berg, and Many more.
The women Timothy had to deal with were former Artemis pagan cult members. If you study who they were and what they did…. 1 Tim 2 makes since. We Christian women of today are Not blinded by some pagan false religion.
Artemis put a female god as god…..they taught that the woman was created first, they taught that they had to be faithful to artemis if they wanted to survive child birth, these women Had the Violent Authority ( “authenteō”) to pick and choose what men would become a eunuchs. That is the kind of authority Paul didn’t want a woman to have. Understandable so, I don’t want anyone to have the right to force a man to be a eunuch.
By the way when you interpret the passage to say that Eve sinned and Adam didn’t you are Soooooooooooo Wrong. They both were in transgression.
Here is how I understand a couple of points made earlier…concerning 1 Tim. 2:14…where Adam wasn’t deceived, but Eve was, is not a point in Adam’s favor. Adam had been given direct instruction about that tree, and he chose to partake. No he was not deceived, he willingly disobeyed. She was saved by bearing children…it doesn’t say how Adam was redeemed, unless it is by continuing in faith and charity as the verse further intimates.
There are a lot of cultural things back in those days, the early days of Christianity, things which we really won’t know or understand, regardless of how much we study them. As pointed out, the written word lacks the ability to always set tone and intent in a way that is easily understood. There are nuances and inflections that don’t translate well, either, than we could be totally missing. That’s the only explanation I can see that makes sense when Paul seems to contradict himself. He was either addressing a particular problem with a particular group, or he was even quoting things back to them, not having quote marks back in those days, or he was being possibly sarcastic.
Overall, there are patterns all through God’s teachings and we have to learn those and apply them to things, like this, that don’t make sense otherwise. This bring a second point, concerning another verse, 1 Cor. 14:34, that the women are commanded to be under obedience , according to the Law. Um…Christ’s death did away with the Law. We are no longer under all those rules and regulations. Love is the fulfillment of the Law, now. And all the traditional Jewish man and woman rules are no longer applied to us. We are free from the Law. Jesus gave us 2 commandments… love God totally and love our fellow people. Absolutely no purpose is served by restricting half the population from serving God in ways in which they feel called to serve just because of gender. It’s simply going against all that Jesus taught. It brings to mind the saying about woman being made from Adam’s side, to be his partner, not below or above him, behind or in front of him, but his partner, equal to him, part of him, next to his heart. And the pattern is that if man loves woman as he should, he would not want her stifled and denied of sharing her talents or gifts. If she is properly submissive, she will not usurp anything, or make him feel threatened by her abilities, and if he is looking at things right, he won’t feel threatened. Partners. Equal heirs. One in marriage and one in Christ. Part of the same body. When angels, neither male nor female.
Given that both Paul and Christ really elevated women, I would go off that and figure that the patterns show that church is the people, not the building, and wherever two or more are gathered, you are “in church” . And that women were given gifts the same as men, to be used, and that if women are equal heirs unto Christ then women are not being feminist if they use their gifts. If everyone follows the patterns Jesus gave us about love. Thanks for reading!
“Suggesting that one and only one understanding is the only correct understanding of the issue ”
Well Sam, your promoting a wish-washy relativistic approach to truth. I’m sorry to say, we don’t always have the right interpretation, but God’s word has only ONE correct interpretation. And if someone says Jesus Christ:
– Isn’t the Son of God,
– He wasn’t born of a virgin
– He wasn’t/Isn’t perfect
– He wasn’t God and man in one person
– He didn’t die a sin atoning death on the cross
– He didn’t rise from the dead and ascend
then that person is flat-out WRONG. I hope you agree that there is only ONE interpretation of these truths found in God’s Word.
“those who see it otherwise are heretics, listen to Satan, or similar language certainly looks like something, but it sure doesn’t look like Jesus.”
Right, because Jesus never used strong language…
“You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. ” John 8:44
“But he turned and said to Peter, ‘Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.'” Mat.16:23
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.” Mat.23:15
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness.” Mat. 23:27
“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?” Mat. 23:33
You’re twisting what Jeremy, Wendy and I are saying to make it sound like we’re saying something we are not. Practicing love for neighbor, kindness and gentleness look like Jesus. The words of Jesus you quoted were all directed at the religious authorities of the day, those who were certain they knew the correct interpretation of the Scriptures.
For ALL involved with regards to the question of Right/Wrong,
Understanding/Ignorance; there have ALWAYS been AND always WILL BE 2 types of UNDERSTANDING: (until Christ’s return)
Man’s/satan’s knowledge: God’s knowledge
1.Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil 1. Tree of Life
2.Through reason–mind alone 2. Through revelation – heart
3.Through study 3. Through meditation
Called “Knowledge” Called “True Knowledge”
4.Wisdom from below– 4. Wisdom from above –
producing pride producing humility
5.Greek (detached knowledge) 5. Hebrew (Lamad training)
Man’s use of reason apart from listening to God is never endorsed in Scripture. Reason is only mentioned on two occasions
in the Gospels. Each time, Jesus rebuked the individuals for their faulty way of thinking.
In summary:
Any training that centers on man, the mind alone and study will be man’s knowledge.
Man’s thoughts are not God’s thoughts; man’s ways are not God’s
ways (Isa 55:9).
Even man’s religious thoughts are not God’s thoughts; and man’s religious ways are not God’s ways (Which of the prophets did your fathers not kill? Acts 7:51,52).
Any training that centers on God, the heart, divine revelation and
Spirit-led reason will be God’s knowledge.
So love your neighbor and toss out the Bible, everything will be fine, right?
JJ,
It is difficult online to hear someone’s tone of voice, but to me, your comment sounds quite angry. Are you angry? If not, please, for the sake of the online community here, try to soften your language and words toward others.
Jeremy,
I’m not angry, though I am displeased when people discuss the Bible in a public forum (like the internet) and promote conclusions based on opinion, speculation, and secular ideology, rather than clear reasoning from the Scriptures. Especially when those conclusions involve an undiscerning capitulation to culture. It dishonors the Word of God and doesn’t heed the warning “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.” James 3:1.
JJ,
Once again, although you and I disagree, this doesn’t mean that my views are based on opinion, speculation, and secular theology. You may not know the exegetical work I have done to reach my conclusions, but that is not my fault.
So as I have said to others on this blog … before lashing out with accusations and attacks, at least seek to learn something about the actual views and beliefs of the person you intend to attack. If you don’t want to learn about what I actually believe, that is fine … you don’t have to. But if you don’t know what I believe, don’t attack or condemn what you think I believe.
Rather than spending your time accusing Jeremy and what he has written, consider getting to know your neighbors, co-workers if you have any, the poor, the lonely, the widows and orphans, those who have no roof over their heads, and share the love of Jesus with them in practical ways. Sit with them, weep with them when they weep, put you arm around them and comfort them. Give them a cup of water if they are thirsty, a sandwich if they are hungry. If you’re looking for correct doctrine you will find it there, among those whom Jesus loves. Arguing and accusing repels and is the opposite of love.
Jeremy/Sam,
What I’ve learned is that a lot of things are said here without a single Scripture being referenced. There’s a reason for that and I think I know what it is. As such, I regret wasting my time commenting and will not waste any more of it…
JJ,
…so if I put a bunch of Bible verses in parenthesis after a point, that makes it right?
I could do that, of course, but have purposefully chosen not to. But even if I had, you would then simply accuse me of proof texting. So again, the point is not whether Bible verses are quoted or not. Anybody can quote the Bible, even the devil (Luke 4:10-11). The point is that you have different understandings of the pertinent passages than I do.
So rather than think “Hey, what he is saying contradicts Reference X:Y” it would be better to think, “Hmm, I disagree with him. He certainly knows about Reference X:Y … I wonder how he understands that text? Maybe I will search his blog to see if he has written on it. If not, maybe I will ask him to explain it.”
Thank you for your comments, JJ. The replies that they elicited were revealing.
Amen my brother!
Very interesting and very insightful. I get the same response when I try to tell believer’s to state the scriptures and enough of the “I think” and it’s not what you think it’s what the word of God says…
Some 25 years ago, David Pawson published a little book entitled “Leadership is male”. ISBN 0 946616 45 0. In it he sets out some pertinent reason why this should be the case. My wife and I have read the book and are very happy with his statements.
My wife is an outstanding preacher and teacher of God’s Word. We have ministered together since 1981. Furthermore, we are delighted that the ladies have taken up challenge of preaching and teaching. We see this largely as “prophesy” in which men and women are encouraged to participate. It seems a contradiction that God would “gift” ladies with such abilities and then lock them away somewhere, so they cannot be accused of “teaching men”. I’ve also done my very best to encourage ladies to become “prophets”. i.e. to preach and teach men, women and children. Be aware that I’m not referring to prophets such as Isaiah.
The best way I can put it is to say we believe in the the priesthood of all believers as well as the “prophet-hood” of all believers.
Today many Christians have become adept at straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! Mat 23:24 ESV Some of it – not all – stems from envy. “She is a better preacher than me!” (True in my case!)
Philip the evangelist had four daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:8-9 So lets take off our religious blinkers and see the ladies for what they really are. Valuable and precious; gifted by God to be more than someone whose voice is muffled. If God has gifted her, allow her to function in her gift!
Jim
Interesting. Based on the title of that book, it sounds like he was saying that only males should be leaders. But based on the rest of your comment, it sounds like you love it when women preach and teach. So what was David Pawson saying in the book?
I agree I think tradition of man has taken away the foundation of God’s purpose with their own idogoly & many people follow that instead of God’s word for themselves where being the objective is far from salvation, loving God with all your heart & loving your neighbor as thyselve. Love is the focal point not what gender presents it . 1Corth. 12 chapter speaks about gifts & many members in one body in Christ & to my interpretation it’s pertaining to all that have accepted him as their person savior & is empowered to be witness & spread the good news (The Gospel) about Jesus saves!
Jeremy,
Your last paragraph is so right on. – “Once we understand the definition of “church” the whole debate about whether or not it is wrong for women to preach in church or be a “pastor” fades away into insignificance. It becomes a non-issue.”
If anyone reading this is a doer of the institutional church system, (a man made system, not of scripture), will not get the absolute truth of your wrap up point.
Christians have got to get this definition and a proper understanding of what church really is or they will be in a perpetual state of disunity.
Here is an article that does a decent job of defining the word “church” in the bible. Original Greek word “ekklesia”. http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/ekklesia.html
Peace!
Thanks for that article. I will come check it out as I am always interested in how to properly define church.
Below is a link to an excerpt from Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s manuscript entitled “The Local Church”. This is the section entitled “The Role of Women in the Local Church”. Dr. Fruchtenbaum gives solid scriptural exposition on the subject, and exegetes the pertinent passages:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/scripturally-speaking-biblical-dispensational-theology/the-role-of-women-in-the-local-church/331646143525904
While I was fielding questions with some very dear friends and church planters in Asia on this subject, I had asked if Jesus had ever silenced a woman in His ministry. The room fell deafly silent. Then after drawing a picture of a body and then tearing it in half down the middle in front of them, the room went deafly silent again. I would also recommend the book by Jon Zens, What’s With Paul And Women?, Unlocking the Cultural Background to 1 Timothy 2.
I am not sure I understand the imagery of tearing the woman in half…
Tearing the body in half was pointing to the elimination or cutting off the gifts from the body of Christ. Especially with the speaking gifts; prophecy, exhortation, teaching and administration.
Tearing off the female members of the body?
Yes! Women.
Jeremy, perhaps churches that don’t allow women to preach/teach/prophesy ignore the head covering scripture because if they recognized it, they would have to admit women may be prophets. (JJ, I noticed,TOTALLY over ruled the obvious reading here and reinterpreted it.)
I highly suspect this is another of Paul’s responses to the Kaballah teachings of the scribes & Pharisees. They made a HUGE hairy deal out of hair, head coverings, male authority shaving women’s heads, etc. Stuff you never see in the Old Testament, but are still common Jewish practice. People who want to learn more should check out chabad dot com and affiliated sites for a low level intro to this. It is a Jewish site. PLEASE do not get in bondage to it! But it will help you see who Jesus & Paul were addressing.
I have thought much on head coverings in society. Until recently, they were worn as a symbol of what one is qualified & authorized to do. You could recognize what a person’s role was by their hat or cap. Firemen, policemen, bus drivers, military rank, etc. Even though nurses seldom wear caps now, it is still a part of their graduation, which is called a “capping” ceremony. People receiving a Master’s degree receive a hood, which they now wear as more of a sash, but it actually is a hood.
There is something about a stylish hat or lovely draping that gives a woman a regal appearance. In our day, only the most confident woman adorns herself in this way. In cultures where women are deprecated, a mantle or veil signifying she has been authorized by church leaders to prophesy or lead could be advantageous. I believe this is a practiced by the female home group leaders who are part of David Yonggi ho’s church.
As God laid a prophetic mantle upon the prophets he called in the Old Testament, local congregations could do more to affirm and confirm callings today (including commissioning those who feel called to leave, as God guides them). The institutional church as a whole does little along these lines, and often when it is done, the authorized ones tend to become spiritual abusers. How this would play out in a more organic setting today is still being discovered. 🙂
Interesting connections with Kaballah. I need to look into that further.
I’m starting to think most of the difficult NT passages may be in response to Kaballah. (There are va variety of ways to spell Quabala.
I think the site I mentioned might be dot org.
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3878-cabala#anchor1
http://www.jewfaq.org/m/kabbalah.htm
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/477629/jewish/Kabbalah-of-Marriage.htm
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Oral_Torah/oral_torah.html
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1567567/jewish/Kabbalah.htm
http://www.chabad.org
http://www.kabbalah.info/eng/content/view/frame/11638?/eng/content/view/full/11638&main
Thanks. That’s a lot of links to get started with.
As I read the Gospel of Mark, I read where Jesus, After having risen from the dead, appeared first……first……. to Mary Magdalene…..a woman…….and she went and told them….the other disciples….that Jesus was alive. Jesus had eleven Disciples to whom He could have appeared to, but He chose Mary, and she went and told the others. Mark 16: Vs 9-10. Also Luke 24:Vs 8-10 says…”And they remembered His Words, and returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven,and to all the rest.{Who were…They???} it was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary, the mother of James, and other ….women…. that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles”. vs 10.What did they tell the apostles, and Disciples??? They told them that Jesus was Risen from the dead, and is now alive. So, maybe I’m wrong, but it seems to me, that the very first Evangelists, the very first ones who Jesus sent into the world, with the Good news of His resurrection, were all women. Also, Jesus said to His Disciples “Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature”. And “these signs shall follow them …….that believe”……{Not just men, but them that believe} Mark 16 vs: 15, 17. Added words are mine. Now when His Born-Again children of today read those Words of Jesus, in the Bible, I would think, that those words of Jesus, apply to both men and women too, and I don’t read anywhere,where Jesus tells women, not to preach in the church. Remember, the true (Church} is not a building, But it is His people, wherever they may gather. So. like I said, I could be wrong, but I believe that as Gods children, both men and women, are to preach the Gospel, everywhere, in and out of the church, that the world might know, that Jesus is alive, and Heaven is open to all who believe, and receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Praise the Lord.
Tony,
I agree with you because I believe that women ought to spread the Good News through preaching and evangelism in the world and in the invisible church (via internet, for example). However, as soon as the question of pastoring a (visible) church arises, the question of church leadership in a somehow settled organization appears as well. And here we come into conflict with different NT Scriptures as we all know.
For the record, some years ago I asked the Lord why I have always felt uneasy when seeing a female pastor preaching in the church, BUT, one the other hand, why did He teach and reveal so many things to me, if I never have the chance to share them?
Here’s Jesus’ perplexing response,
“If you see a woman pastoring a church, you will know at once that she doesn’t know me yet because she interprets Scripture wrongly according to her own liking. If she had accepted my authority over her life instead, she would know that she is already a priestess and queen in the invisible kingdom of God and would have no desire to rule over men any longer.”
Ouch! God is sometimes hilarious, but His humor hardly soft-soaps anybody. Quite the contrary, His words often cut me into pieces until I had learned to obey Him.
“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” (Heb 4:12-13 ESV)
Jeremy,
Could you correct the following mistake, please?
“[…] BUT, on the other hand […]”
Thank you! 😉
Hi Susanne….I am not sure that I understand all of what you said was Gods response to your question to Him. If a woman is the Pastor of a church, does this necessarily mean that she has a desire to “rule over men”?? Could she not simply have a desire to reach out to her part of the world, with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and see people saved, in obedience to God and His Word, without ruling over men?? If a woman Pastors a church, and people get saved, and Born-Again, are they not truly saved?? Does the Bible not say that in Gods Kingdom, there is neither male nor female, but all are one, in Christ Jesus, and that God is not a respecter of persons?? I really can’t understand why God would desire for people to be saved by men preaching to them but not women. Paul did say that if a woman desires to….learn..something, she should ask her husband at home, but not during the church service. Sounds like he was talking about educational learning, not being a Pastor.
Hi Tony,
Thanks so much for your kind response. 😉
I do admit that I have problems to bring across what I am talking about here and I do not know all the answers to my questions yet. The response I heard from Jesus was not given directly after my question but more than ten years later, years in which I have been waiting for the answer to the burning question, “What do You want me to do, wherever, inside or outside the church?”
From my own experience I know that God always judges our hearts. Thus, if He is speaking about a woman’s desire to rule over men, He is directly looking into the inside of the woman, although, from the outside, you might see a nice and kind woman who is seemingly hell-bent on saving men and women.
As for the Kingdom of God, it is not yet visible now though it will be later. Although I know that God uses my writing or speaking, from time to time, in a prophetic way (since He attested this special call to me by some brothers and sisters), I am merely an instrument, a servant, who can only work effectively if God decides to use my doing for the benefit of expanding His invisible Kingdom. If, however, He chooses to not need me any longer, I cannot do anything on my own. Sounds bizarre, I know. But it is true. I am completely dependant on His supernatural guidance. If God says, “Go to the left!” I do it without thinking about it. If He, instead, wants me to change direction or to stop doing everything, I am quasi compelled to obey because He empties my mind from my own thoughts and plans and squares them with His thoughts and plans. As you can imagine, sometimes I still wonder how “strange” it feels to be led by God in such a way.
So, returning to the female pastor in the visible church, I know some of them who are really sweet and well-intentioned in their “pulpiteering” and in fulfilling their social commitment. I added inverted commas here since I never heard or read a sermon from a woman pastor which was somehow convicting or calling to repentance. Basically, you hear them talk about “Jesus, our brother [not LORD and KING], who loves everybody whatever they do and howsoever they might live”. They tend to embrace homosexual marriages, to accept divorces and remarriages without raising an eyebrow, and they are open for new non-biblical teachings, for esoteric literature, and suchlike.
Listening to them, you might eventually get the impression that Jesus was and still is a softy who caresses us all the time and who would never dare to contradict our false notion of God.
The problem is, as it is with many male liberals too, that they have a one-sided notion of Jesus which rests upon a shortened form of the gospel, excluding the Christ as He is, for example, extensively described in the Book of Revelation.
I do know that nobody is able to know Christ unless He reveals Himself to them and shows who He really is. Therefore it is not my intention to judge those who are prone to accept the liberal mindset which I did in the past as well. However, I’d like to encourage every woman, pastor or not, but pastors even more than mere listeners, ask yourself, “Am I interested in knowing the truth and the real Jesus, or do I prefer defending my comfortable lifestyle and thinking against all odds?”
Finally, a human life without the cross, which means dying to self and to our own plans and notions of God and of our life here on earth, is a worldly life, not a Christian life.
“So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.
“Salt is good, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is of no use either for the soil or for the manure pile. It is thrown away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”” (Lk 14:33-35 ESV)
Good points. I think as soon as we realize the church is not a building, and the Gospel is a message of words AND a way of life, then some of these divisive issues within the church just fade away into insignificance and meaninglessness.
Amen
agree i think my argument here is timeline?
pastor, i think setting and timeline should also be considered like in this end time there’s no more issue on the gender role because today is already he fulfillment of God’s promise.I struggled a lot in this topic and questioned the church where ive been saved…and i came into a conclusion of john 14:6 Jesus is the only way….Thanks and God bless
It is not like they didn’t exist. There is a place for a woman as well as others in the congregation. But the hierarchy is God, Man, Woman, and so on. Certainly a woman can teach, let them teach the young woman to be a chaste housekeepers or person etc. There are some things a pastor or Paul couldn’t/shouldn’t / can’t teach thus making way for the woman to teach. Let a pastor have one wife, can’t be a woman at this point seems as if the pastor has to be a man. How about because the woman was deceived and not the man says Paul. Women are so beautiful and I am a woman, it is so wonderful when you see a woman as an authority figure advising new converts, and our young mothers especially in areas where there is an abundance of our girls and ladies that are poor, untrained, grammar deficient, not knowing how to be ladies and keeping their homes etc. as the bible suggests. These converts young women need help as well as older females that never got home training, older wise women(and we do have them) that can come alongside them after their conversion showing them how it is done. Then the world can see how the church can take young women and teenagers and girls of all demographics and make beautiful Christian women . So that is a lot right there for a woman to teach in the church. So why bicker about being pastor –you can’t be a pastor if you are a woman, cause a pastor has to be married to one wife–meaning he has to be a man.
Jeremy, thank you for your interesting blog. I can discern that you have a burden for the saints and are actively sacrificing time and resources to share your understanding and wisdom.
I would like to get a grasp on a statement you made in your conclusion. You said, “Once we understand the definition of “church” the whole debate about whether or not it is wrong for women to preach in church or be a ‘pastor’ fades away into insignificance.”
I assume that you have come to a definition of church from your studies of the bible and that it is this definition that effects the interpretation that it is right for women to preach in “church” or become a pastor.
Before I inquire further, I have a question:
1st Corinthians 11:18 says, “For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.” If ‘the Church” only means, “the people of God who follow Jesus into the world” then how do the people of God come together in the people of God?
Perhaps this definition of ‘the church’ could be refined to not only include, the people of God (the Body of Christ), but also to include the ‘ecclesia’, namely, that particular assembly of the people of God where particular things are done, in order, and particular things are not done.
Would that be fair, so that I may inquire further into the pertinent passages regarding our Sisters in Christ?
Good, gracious, insightful question. I do believe that the universal church is able to gather in small parts in local physical settings. I think that is what you were asking? So yes, the ecclesia has local settings.
As for Paul’s instruction to the Corinthians in their local setting, it is difficult to get universal principles for the universal church from a local church setting, especially one as troubled as Corinth. It does appear that Paul did not allow women in Corinth to speak in their local gatherings.
What is your take on this text?
Hello Jeremy,
I agree that it is difficult to find in the bible explicit statements mentioning traditions that are to be practiced in all churches for all times.
Is there overwhelming evidence that 1st Corinthians 13:33-34 does not apply to us today? Here is the scripture as rendered by the ESV:
“For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.”
So how are we to determine what sentence the statement “all the churches of the saints” should be included in? Also, why mention “churches” in the plural if Paul only intended that local church to follow this practice and not qualify it by saying “in Corinth”?
Should we believe then that the New Testament patterns and traditions mentioned to the various church’s in the epistles do not apply to us? Perhaps those passages that we discern no particular spiritual benefit should not apply? I can foresee some troubling consequences to our testimony as Christians by interpreting disagreeable verses this way.
My personal approach is that if I am unsure of the applicability of a teaching that affects me, i’d rather practice obedience to the Word, rather than become a stumbling block for a Christian or a non-believer. A Christian should be above reproach in the world, being all things to all men, so that some may be won to Christ.
If someone is offended that you drink wine, though you are free to, then don’t drink for the sake of the weaker Christian or non-believer. We do not venture into the way of disobedience though, doing that which we are commanded not to, but rather listen to God, no matter who it offends or what man made laws are broken.
Timothy was willing to be circumcised for the sake of the Jews, though he did not have to. Paul worked day and night with his hands so that he could make the gospel without charge. Presumably, it was more important for Paul at this time to be without blame, than to be in chargeable full time ministry. None could find occasion to discredit the motives of the Apostles of Christ and therefore, their words were regarded as from God and not from man and so the Word of God had occasion to work effectually in them that believed.
The world is not lacking in teachers and preachers. It is lacking in doers of the Word of God. Whatever the view of the teaching silencing women in the church, I know that I am more edified by the Sister that applies this teaching to her life, choosing instead, sacrifice and obedience. Philippians 2:8 says, “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” May we all find such uncomfortable scripture to conform ourselves to Christ and be sanctified by His Spirit.
Garth.
It sounds like you have thought carefully through your position. You can state it well, and most importantly, you can state it with grace! Thank you. I respect your view and how you arrived at it.
So basically the only man I have to submit to is one who truly submits to Jesus. Okay….I guess if there aren’t such perfect men On earth I will have to submit to Jesus myself. Hence women pastors. Jesus asks us to spread the good news. If my husband spreads lies and hate, I will chose the authority of his master and spread love instead.
This is in reply about what Shawn stated above about “The Elders being the head or having athority over the man and the man has authority over his wife”….Either you misquoted 1Corinthians 11:3 ( also look at Ephesians 5:23 as well) or you’re teaching a false doctrine it is God who is Head over Christ and CHRIST(JESUS) who is the head and authority over man NOT “THE ELDERS” .
This is another subject where I think the interpretation is pretty clear but we has humans have dropped the ball on application. I think most of us can all agree that homosexuality and abortion are sin according to the Bible but when we decide to put people in power who are willing to evict people from houses and refuse to serve them at restaurants because of their orientation and boldly proclaim pro-life values but want to leave these children left at the border out to dry we do evil in the name of biblical truth.
I think that God’s perfect design for how our church was meant to be run as Paul stated, without women having spiritual authority over men. Both males and females have been given equally important roles. However look at how we have treated women in our society for generations. Even still they are paid less than men on average, slut-shamed with our society’s double standards, etc. It’s no wonder women feel like they have been made inferior to men and it doesn’t help the church to shout scripture at them which appears to cast them as inferior while doing nothing to improve what is ailing us in society. If we want to show the truths of God’s design of equal but different roles you first have to show that women are loved and valued by God outside of the church walls.
I love what you say there. Yes, if we are going to show people God’s design, we first have to show that God loves women. Sadly, the church does not often show this (though we pay it lip service).
Please provide examples of how the Church is failing to show love toward women and prevailing at showing love toward men and the youth. A Church that loves one another will also rejoice in the truth, not hide from it.
Certainly we cannot expect that the world will treat women, men, children or babies as they should be treated. This is why Christians fellowship and encourage one another to love a world that does not yet have Jesus Christ.
Christian action should not be directed by what we think God’s will is. It is directed by what His will is. It is not up to us to bend and dance around the truth until the world and immature Christians are ready to accept it. It is His power alone that will provide the increase in knowledge, wisdom and then application in a believers life.
The religion of today is from Rome, All the Christians and Apostles had been killed by 70 ad except for John who was imprisoned on the Island of Patmos, probably working in a coal mine. Rome carried out the death of Christ, Paul, Peter and some others wanting to establish their Pagan ” Idol worship ” religion. In three eighteen ad Constantine the emperor of Rome chose a pagan temple, ” Building ” and called it a church. Acts 7v48 says God will no longer dwell in Temples made by man. Tithing,” Works ” was disannulled by Jesus “Hebrews 7v18″ becoming our High Priest, ” In need of nothing and made ALL men Priest, but Rome reinstalled tithing and created a SUN -day school to make sure the children learned Catholic ” Universal ” doctrine, Rabbits, eggs ,Christ-mass with Its evergreen trees,Jeremiah 10v2 gives us a warning from God about this type of religion. The religion in the U.S. is catholic, Sun-day, Saturn-day, moon-day, buildings with obelisk, “sex” on top of so called holy buildings where many people go to hear what one man has to say three time a week while they are kept dumb like sheep being led to slaughter. The religious system of today cannot be found in the New Testament.
Aubrey,
In many ways I agree with you, and have written quite a bit about this on this blog.
However, I also think that Jesus redeems all things, and so even though some pagan practices and influences have infiltrated what Jesus was doing, I still think that many people can benefit from them as they follow Jesus.
Is it possible that Paul wanted to simply respect the cultural norms and laws so the elder men of those churches would not throw Timothy out on his ear? He is known to have given different instructions to different audiences, like any effective teacher, so they could receive the Word without too much resistance. I don’t believe we should place Paul’s instructions above Christs, there is little to argue about when we focus on Jesus. To me Paul is the cheerleader and Jesus is the whole football team. I enjoy Paul’s displays of enthusiasm, but I try not to let all his words distract me from watching the game (ie. Having a personal relationship with God).
They honor me with their tongues but their hearts are far from me…
I still don’t believe you have it right! Why would Paul, sought out to write (be an author in) God’s Word of Truth, leave such a questionable passage of verses? Does he not take us back to the example of Eve leading Adam astray? I have seen and heard about so many women taking up the teachings of this world (it’s self-assertive and/or stubborn and careless attitude), that I can’t believe that Paul was just speaking to those specific regions/churches. And you can’t tell me that just because you have been led by women means that I should! A woman’s brain works better with language and isn’t as anxious about expressing it’s opinions like a man’s. But, I would never look at a woman as an expression of authority! It doesn’t belong to her, even if the world is telling women they have the same authority as man. There are so many names given to man. At birth, we’re named “holy” (Luke 2:23). King Lemuel’s mother tells him that he is the possessor of “strength,” and for him “not to give it to women.”(Proverbs 31).
This world never teaches girls/women to respect men, even though we’re set apart from women in God’s Word. In this world, we’re put into schools bunched up right beside female children, with no respect for our differences.
I don’t know why Priscilla felt so free to help lead Paul, but I definitely would not dismiss that she had Aquila as her husband, a strong teacher and authority to guide her.
P.S. Post whatever about this comment. I am un-studied and have, instead of moving forward in my Bible studies over the past several years, have been moving backwards. I would just, as “keep(er) of my heart (mind)” (Prov.4:23), be very careful to let a woman direct my path! Especially when that path pertains to God’s Word.
Yes, I understand that argument about Adam and Eve. I need to do a lot of thinking about it myself, but think there may be more to the story of Adam and Eve than we imagine.
Even still, I have learned a lot from women, and would never discredit what a woman says just because she is a woman. That is not the equality in Christ which we have been taught by Jesus and the NT authors.
Hi Jeremy, I am a woman Pastor. I feel that God has truly placed me in this position. My question to all those that don’t believe that women are to be spiritual leaders what about Deborah? Are you saying that God went against His own will? That He has respect of person? According to Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” KJV. So as a “spiritual” son of God, am I not qualified to preach. 1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. KJV. Usurp means:
NT:831 to use or exercise authority or power over as an autocrat, to domineer (from The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament © 1992 by AMG International, Inc. Revised Edition, 1993) I don’t domineer over my husband at home nor any of the men of our congregation. I present the Word of God to them, it’s their choice to obey “it” or disobey. Concerning I Cor 14:34-39. If that verse is taken literally, there are many women that can’t be save. So are you saying if a woman doesn’t have a husband or if her husband understands less then she does then she’s just lost. I don’t think that could be correct since Peter stated in 2 Peter 3:9 “….not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” KJV.
Please correct me if I’m wrong
If you claim to be a preacher of the truths of God’s word, I can’t believe you would ask what you are asking here.
Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” KJV. So as a “spiritual” son of God, am I not qualified to preach. 1 Tim 2:12
Are you a son or daughter of Christ?
If you are a woman are you meaning to say that you don’t know you are a woman?
You are a (woman) not a a “spiritual” son of God.
Greetings Evelyn,
The prophetess, Deborah is a wonderful example of godly wisdom, courage, reverence for God and humility. She is not an example for women to oversee a gathering of the saints where men fellowship. This is evidenced by the applicable Scriptures.
Why did Deborah rebuke Barak for insisting she come with him to battle?
In order to follow the good example of Deborah please be encouraged by reading Judges 4:6-9, 14. In other words, encourage and exhort a qualified plurality of male overseers to shepherd and teach the saints that assemble.
Please also consider:
1 Tim 3:2 “An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,..”
Tit 1:5-6 “…appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife,”
Do you qualify as an overseer or elder?
Evelyn, you may possess godly wisdom, much like Deborah, and the present evil world needs to hear from people like you, but do so, while being above reproach.
The Scriptures abound with gender role distinctions. How should you respond to the crafty one who says, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not teach or have authority over a man, but remain quiet’?”
“Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a think to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being make in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Phil 2.
Deborah not being a church leader is a moot point because she was a prophet and judge. She’s an example contradicting the male teachers of Gods instructions only mentality that many people have used 1 Timothy 2:11-14 to justify. There is no specification for a church setting in those verses. The entire book of proverbs also contradicts that interpretation, because those are the teachings of Lemuels mother. The other female prophets mentioned in the old testament are Miriam, Hulda and Noadiah. Isaiah uses a female prophet as an example of how God uses people to reveal his will. In the new testament Anna and Philips four daughters are mentioned as prophets. The first preachers of the gospel were women, commissioned by Jesus himself. They taught the apostles about Jesus resurrection. Romans 16:7, Acts 2:17-18 and 24-26, Phillipians 4:2-3, romans 16:1-12; which mentiones Phoebe as a deacon in the original Greek text, 1 Corinthians 1:11 and Collosians 4:15 all mention women who preached the gospel, the last verse specifically mentioning that Nympha had church meetings in her home. And your interpretation of the verses you quoted would disqualify Paul and all of the disciples as overseers and elders, because none of them were married.
You happen to be wrong. Deborah was a judge, not a preacher. And it was a one time thing. Did ya see anywhere else in the Old Testament that a woman ruled over men? I thro not. She was Old Testament and was put there for a particular reason. What Paul said was most definately New Testament
Thankyou so much for the post, I’ve recently started bible college and really want to continue to become a pastor. But I was too afraid to even bring it up to anyone and also felt guilty for even yearning for this. You article was so helpful!
Good to know. My good friend, Kathy Escobar, is a pastor. Look her up online. You will be encouraged.
Greetings, fellow believers! I read this conversation with great interest, as I, too am a new creation thanks to Jesus…and I search for and rejoice in truth. Two points: What we perceive as truth may not actually always be the truth. For instance, I was blown away when I discovered time is not always constant, but may be affected by gravity. Equally amazing, I thought the sky is blue. Well…guess what? It’s really a violet color, God has given some insects and birds the ability to see this. I love the blue sky as i perceive it! What is truth? The Word is Truth. The Word has many forms, too…it is the Written Word & Jesus Himself, for sure. Have we prayed and asked God for the answer to this dilemma of female pastors/preachers? Some certainly have. Has Holy Spirit led us in all truth on this (and a LOT of other interesting differences of spiritual beliefs and practices)? My conclusion is that God has nothing to do with disunity, so we must figure this out for ourselves, and that it is not nearly as important an issue as we think. Point 2: Allow the women Pastors to do what they feel called to do. Pray for them and their congregations. We are on the same team! They will be held accountable by God and will answer to Him only…not you or me. Let’s get on with peace and love! God has enough grace to cover this stuff! Really enjoyed this blog, by the way!
wow this my conclusion too…what’s important is that I’m sure I’m saved
There are some who agree women can evangalize,or be evangelists,but cannot pastor a church.
Bible has something to say about that.Ephesians 4:11 says,”And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;”
He gave “some”,without any special reference to men alone.So over there,if women can be evangelists or preachers,then they can pastor a Church as well.
Deborah was a Judge.Aside occupying a social position,Bible tells us something striking.Bible says she was a prophetess.A spiritual guide.She stood in the office of a prophet.And all Israel(men and women) came to her for counsel.[Judges 4:4-5]And guess what?She was married to a man named Lapidoth(Judges 4:4).
Over in the New Testament,we have prophetess Anna,a widow,who spoke to all men concerning the redemption of Christ.(Luke 2:36).
You may say Deborah is of the Old Testament,what about the New Testament Church?Well,we have Priscilla who taught a man named Apollos.Whether Apollos was taken outside the congregation or whatever(and ofcourse he couldn’t be interrupted that way) the point is,a woman together with her husband,taught a man.If this was such a grave thing,Priscilla could’ve backed out and left the teaching for her husband alone,instead she does the opposite.
Where in the Bible do we see Priscilla preaching a congregation or pastoring a church?Well,where do we see Apostle Mathias preaching a congregation? We shouldn’t use such examples to explain everything God should have done.Priscilla and Aquilla are mentioned by name six times in the Greek New Testament.Significantly,in four of those occurrences,Priscilla’s name is mentioned first.
This unconventional order of the wife’s name before her husband’s may be an indication that Priscilla’s ministry was more prominent than
Aquila’s.
Let us all walk in love.Before you call anyone a heretic,first be humble enough to listen.Let us avoid the habit of digging up stories in order to discredit one party and to give weight to what we say.These stories may turn out to be empty rumours.We shouldn’t stoop that low.Before anyone says God told them things,they must make sure it is consistent with God’s infallible word.
The story of women being easily possessed by demons to distort God’s message is totally unbiblical and must be stopped.If it were so,the woman who was sent by Jesus to herald the first resurrection Gospel,would have distorted.Yet Bible says,this same Magdalene was freed from bondage to demons.Anything that brings fear and bondage isn’t the Gospel.The reason why the word seems not to be gaining ascendancy in some parts of the world is because of the coldness of the human heart.To blame it entirely on women is unscriptural.
Were there not men(scribes and pharisees) who distorted God’s message and taught false things?Or should we remind ourselves of a man named BarJesus,a diviner,possessed of the devil.Who sought to pervert God’s message that Apostle Paul brought?
Whether men or women,all are set free from demons and Satan by Christ Jesus.Whether married or unmarried,this earthly institution(as Paul calls marriage in 1 Corinthians 7) does not influence God’s decision to use a woman in the Kingdom.
Thanks,Jeremy.Thanks everyone.
My grandfather, father, uncle, and brother are ministers. Three of them have gone on to be with the Lord while my brother is still a pastor. Having spent most of my life surrounded by some incredible women of God who knew the Word, lived the Word, spoke the Word,led Bible Studies, preached powerful sermons to thousands at a single gathering and so on, had the ability to heal with the Word, raise the dead, cast out Demons with the Power of the Word and so on I have come to the conclusion that “MAN” has distorted what God has always intended for His church. Women have always been treated as the lesser being by men….these same men who put the bible together had an agenda and made sure that they were supposed to be in charge and women were to be kept in chains. Funny thing is that God still allows women to spread the Gospel, pastor churches, heal the sick, and so on even though certain denominations try to suppress it. I honestly don’t lose one minute of sleep over this topic and there are so many other far more important things going on in the world today that need our attention. I have no doubt whatsoever that these amazing women of God will one day stand before Him and He will look at them, smile, and say.”well done my good and faithful servant and welcome them into eternity with Him. no if’s and’s or but’s.
AMEN! Very well said
Michael,
You are treading on dangerous ground. The Bible has not been put together by men with an agenda to keep women in chains. If I was you I would start losing sleep!
i agree with Jeremy Myers on this issue of women in ministry. but for me i don’t see this as a debate at all, i am just doing it for the sake of others. because in this last days were the Holy Spirit has been given to all believers in Christ, laborers are few, the coming of the Lord Jesus closer today than it was yesterday, we have so many unreached areas with gospel, women are instrumental to the finishing of the great commission. Jesus said if people will not praise him he will raise stones to do it; i think women are more important than stones. for women to gather believers and propel them for God’s mission in the world, to me is 100% correct. does 2Timothy 2:2 only apply to men?
And the things which I have said to you before a number of witnesses, give to those of the faith, so that they may be teachers of others. (BBE).
any church/minister in right sense will not try to put women out of ministry, they have been very instrumental to the church and God’s mission in general.
women supported both the Lord Jesus and apostle Paul’s ministries. but both understood the culture in which they ministered – women were not respected in the Jewish culture so they could not use them as public ministers then, were progressing in the change of society by the Gospel (including the status of a woman), they did not prove of the culture, and could not wage war against it.
the same with the issue of slavery, when Paul ask slaves to submit to their masters – see Philemon, was Paul avocating for slavery? of cause not; he had to accept the culture then work for change through the gospel. it is the same with gender equality in ministry. i think this should be a cultural issue in some places not a biblical doctrine for woman not to pastor/teach.
biblically speaking what are the physical difference between a man and a woman that will not permit the woman from ministry?
with the above reasons, i will like to conclude that women can be part of all christian ministry minus nothing, in order to help finish the great commission and usher in the coming of our Lord Jesus. ‘woman in Christianity thou art loosed’ serve the Lord with gladness.
It really devastates me to listen to the most sexist and vile chauvinistic rantings by some on here, it borders beyond absolute hatred and misogyny. So many women I know have left the Church because the Church has for years crippled women’s intellect, creativity, and heart and love for Jesus by the vile hatred of men. Even Tertullian calling women ‘the devil’s gateway’, or ‘misbegotten male’. Does anyone realise Adam could have said no to Eve, she was tempted by the very crafty devil, Adam was tempted by a so called ‘devil’s gateway’ female, and Adam of course blamed Eve, when he could have said no to her and Satan. the Bible and its versus have been used by men to abuse every aspect of being a ‘female’. Domestic violence against women has been overlooked by the Church throughout the centuries. Women are often leaving Churches and having their own small Church groups where they can praise and worship Jesus without male control and domination. Churches will not reach out to women if women are made to feel inferior, unloved and treated like the ‘devil’s gateway’ in Churches. Jesus treated women in ways that were considered revolutionary in His time on earth, yet many men in Churches treat women quite the opposite. Hardly any reason for a woman to want to go to Church if she has to sit there like a ‘stunned mullet’ and not a say a word. Pure misogyny.
It really is sad. Thanks for speaking up!
I agree and it is so nice to see this issue addressed. I avoided Christianity for 30 years because of the abuse I witnessed. When I finally felt Christ calling me to look past Christians to Himself I started attending a bible church. I love learning the scriptures line by line but I hate the political commentary and chauvinistic old boys club comments. I feel so torn because I want to learn scripture but I can’t find a church that focuses on the bible but isn’t also full of hate and egotism.
Most of us have trouble seeing ourselves as others see us. This has also been true of the church. Your comment could have been signed “Legion, for we are many.”
Pure misogyny. Huh?
I’ve read many of the comments here. A lot tend to be one sided. It seems to be the norm to call any man that interprets Scripture against a woman preaching in the church, a misogynist. Toxic male. Not once do I believe that Ive read that any woman that believes that she should be able to preach in church a feminist ??? Why is that?
I also thought about this as many women are talking about being deacons. So I searched the Scriptures. I looked for the biblical meaning of deacon . So I found it.
Then the twelve (apostles, men) called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
Deacons originally served tables.
Wonder why the Apostles sought out 7 MEN of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, to be appointed over that business and not any women?
Well, so finally I see what some translations call a “deaconese”
Phoebe. And what was she according the the Scriptures. She was a servant. She is known for bringing Paul’s letter to the Romans which he sent with her to gain him access and welcome into the Roman Christian community for his upcoming visit. She was not a preacher, she was simply a servant of the church and nothing more is ever said of her.
You can assume all ya want, but no one has any proof of any thing else.The original Greek says: οὖσαν διάκονον, ousan diakonon, being [the] [female] servant of the church at Cenchreae.
I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Again, she is not a preacher or teacher, she was a helper of the church.
Far too many of us are more interested in asserting our “rights”or pointing the finger than listening to what God has to say. The Bible is the word of God, He uses it to communicate to us. Unfortunately we continue to interpret it without the guidance of the spirit and without such light there is only darkness and the inevitable result of anger, resentment and division. We interpret the word of God in such a way because we are insular and self obsessed. We place position before obedience, sacrifice before obedience and believe wrongly that grace will suffice for all things. Our attitude is reckless. Is not the beginning of wisdom fear of God?
When Jesus returns He will not do so meek and mild, He is coming in judgement and make no mistake that judgement will begin in the house of God. How unwise we are!
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
How many men in leadership positions put Christ at the head? I can tell you that it isn’t very many. If it was so the church would not be in such ruins. We are fat with big fancy houses, new cars, holidays and all the latest mod coms. We eat and make merry while the world dies around us. We have at our disposal all the true riches of God to give to others but we see and experience little of this. God has to pour fresh water into dirty vessels because we leave Him no choice.
So to the question of should women be in authority over men? The answer is categorically no and that is the case because God says so, He is not a misogamist and neither is Saint Paul. God is looking for over comers, those who will be true to Him even unto death. Instead of looking at how disadvantaged or how unfairly treated you will be look at Jesus and ask yourself what right did we have to ram a crown of thorns on His head, nail Him to a tree and leave Him to die.
What is really sad is the fact we play at Church and know nothing of the God we profess to worship.
how can you judge Terry who “plays at church and knows nothing of God”, how can you judge the hearts of all the people on this thread. How can you even consider judging people’s professed worship of God. Have you heard any of their prayers? Have you seen what they have done all week in service to God? If you truly believe that, then it is combining legalism with Christianity.
You should realize that God doesn’t give men permission to have authority over women simply because of gender differences. Jesus specifically taught that none should lord it over with anyone. What it means by adressing husbands as heads of their wives is not making husbands automatic leaders in relationships, because marriage is a partnership. There needs to be equal contribution from both spouses to benefit and please each other. That was the whole reason for the statement in the creation in Genesis, “it is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him”. The word translated as helper from the original hebrew text is ezer, meaning a necessary help to benefit someone. This word is used numerous times in the old testament to refer to God, and twice for allied armies who came to rescue Israelites from enemy forces. Wives are not husbands assistants, they are their rescue from being alone.
wow! SO much point of view in here. In the end, God relates with each individual in unity and edification of His Body- the church. Thank you Jeremy for this post. Indeed, I thought it was written by a woman 🙂 I am glad it was written by a man, as inspired by Holy Spirit. I would like us to consider the fact that; when this transient world passes a way, and our fallen flesh passes with it, we would have a new body and a new world. Also, we would each give personal account to the head of the church on how we lived in submission to Him and Him alone.
Woman or Man, our relationship with Christ Jesus is most important and its in that relationship we find and understand scriptural truths that is applicable to our daily lives. The Jews knew lots of scriptures but missed the Messiah when He came even though they were awaiting His arrival. Brethren, what is God saying to you for every scripture? If you have a relationship with Him, you will know, hear, and Do His voice. Do like wise and don’t compare your obedience with others or push it on others. State what God reveals to you and answer questions based on your relationship with Him and His world and His People. Not in accordance to human wisdom/knowledge, doctrines and cultural practices.
God is Love and He is Light. God is Truth and He is the Way.
If the Son of God be lifted up in our daily relationships, He alone can, and will, draw all human beings to Himself.
finally, we should not confuse our positions and heritage in Christ Jesus with our positions and heritage in our earthly cultures. Keep those things that glorify God in our culture and throw away those things that don’t. How do we know which to keep and not? In our personal individual and unique relationship in Christ Jesus.
Are you a politician Samuel?
Very good article. Answers a lot of questions. Very good comments also. More questions answered for those still unsure of women “speaking in the church”. My personal belief, & I have came to this as of late, watching ladies like Billy Graham’s daughter (who, by the way, also in my own personal opinion, preaches better than most “called” men)…is this….& let me emphasis I am in no way saying no one has to believe the way I believe, lest I could be wrong, & be a stumbling block for my brothers & sisters in Christ. Male or female, God’s word is going to go on throughout eternity. So, IF we don’t have men standing up & saying “Here am I, Lord”, like Samuel did…then of course women are going to start preaching, because God’s way triumphs over man’s way EVERY TIME! Those who still teach that women should stay silent in the church house, are living in the stone age & against God’s will. If it is God’s will that He calls a woman to preach…it’s because all the men He called answered with…”I can’t do it, Lord”, or “It ain’t my job”. And who are we to rebuke the Almighty’s word or will? Look, last time I read the great command at the end of Matthew…verse 28:18, I believe it is….I don’t once recall seeing Jesus tell His disciples THAT ONLY MEN should go out & preach the word, HIS word. He just said GO, & preach the word.
Those who still teach that women should stay silent in the church house, are living in the stone age & against God’s will.
Could you please verify that thru the scripture and not of human opinion? There are PLENTY of God Fearing, bible believing MEN in the world, that still preach the truth. There is no need for woman to do what God told men to do.
I’m of the understanding that Men are to be the leaders of the Lords flocks. Now mind you ,I do think woman have to sometimes take up that mantle (example ,when the men of Israel wouldn’t go to war,Deborah was made their spiritual leader and got her instructions from God.) Under normal circumstances I do feel men (being made in the image of God) shows Christ authority by leading and women (being made in the image of man) shows Christ bride aspect of the Church. I am a woman and if honoring and loving my Lord means letting men be pastors, then I allow so personally, because I wish to please my Lord,and it shouldn’t bother women to do so, because Jesus died for a woman’s sake as he did a mans in terms of salvation. But I will say this ,if a man isn’t teaching a sound doctrine, like Aquila and precilla ,I will correct him.and if men refuse to lead or uphold the ways of the Lord , then a woman can be allowed ,because Deborah had to,and did what was right.
If there is Godly love in a Church. The this issue is moot.the body of Christ should focus on telling everyone about Jesus. Then all are one in the body of Christ.
God will and has used women in preaching and teaching because they have put themselves in that position. God will use what He has at hand.
God does not change his nature regardless of the changes in society or differences in culture. The word of God will not bend or twist in order to fit into current fads or trends. God has entrusted all His authority and responsibility to the church which through Christ is the manifestation of His very being on Earth. This responsibility incidentally also includes Heaven. The church has a responsibility that is far beyond our ability to comprehend. We need to start taking seriously those bits that we can comprehend and lets be honest even a non believer can understand what God says about this topic and that is by simply reading the Bible, it isn’t rocket science!
The core of Christianity is to be Christ like. Christ means anointed or chosen one and what was He chosen or anointed to do? He was chosen/anointed to show us the way, and that was by way of obedience. Nobody can give has much as He did but we can be obedient and in doing so be Christ like. This cherry picking of scripture that we seem to have gotten into is not the way of obedience, it hinders the impact of the church and in doing so hinders God. If God says women should not teach men in church then that is the way it should be. I feel sure Jesus was not very happy at having a crown of thorns hammered on His head but that was what was required by God, He didn’t complain, He was obedient. Women don’t cover their heads in church anymore because someone has told them it’s demeaning. Paul says it’s because of the Angels. Does anybody know why that is so? Sometimes what we don’t understand we simply ignore. The clue is in the garden of Eden.
Whether you are a man or a women God will use you and He will do so in a way that suites His purpose. Put everything down and ask Him what He wants you to do and don’t settle until you have an answer, He will show you. Women beware, your role is far greater than you think.
Terry
I agree with Berean Sheep when in doubt stick to the scripture I am personally doing a research on this and head covering. I think issues like these are so controversial that before one writes on it you need to do extensive research and study coupled with much prayer and the study of God’s word. It should not be based on opinions ever it must be based on what the word says.
Head covering is not a contentious subject, those who believe it is are wrong.
The context is in Paul’s writing and not as many seem to think in the background to it. It is in the word of God, where else would it be. If we we cannot get such a simple matter right what hope do we have of discerning any deeper or hidden matters of God? Are we so dull we have forgotten there is an enemy who loves to confuse and divide us? Paul talks very strongly about the matter of head covering and does not hold back when he speaks of the role of men and women in church, he is very clear on all these matters. Are we saying we know better that him?
I believe it isn’t Paul’s mere instructions but law as he states. Man is the earthly symbol or image of Jesus, while woman is the symbol of the Church. So in this understanding, I share in it’s biblical understanding it’s wise to have the Head the man as the authority over the members of the Church, instead of a woman preaching to a gathering of both men and women. However, when a woman has the opportunities to testify and witness or share the truth to other women and young people it is meaningful where women are counselled by the elderly and led to God.
God bless.
It is a law but no ordinary law it is God’s law or as Watchman Nee puts it God’s governmental authority. Contrary to what the world would have you believe it does not relate to ability. Man is no better than woman at leading, teaching, preaching or anything that pertains to serving God. Whatever we do whether man or woman has to be done through Christ and the less we get in the way of that the better. It is clear woman can do pretty much anything a man can do but is that what God wants? Most people these days believe women not only have the ability but also have every right to do the things men do but is that a God given right?
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Jesus had the ability and indeed the right to command a legion of angels to take Him off the cross but He exercised neither His right nor His ability because His obedience to the Father outweighed both His ability and His right.
Women today are in a far greater position than they were years ago to follow the obedience of Christ and lay aside their abilities and their rights. Ironically it is due mostly to the fight for women’s rights that christian women are in such a wonderful position. Women can now give God back the very thing Eve gave to the enemy and in doing so represent the church. Bare in mind the serpent was an angel and consider why Paul says it is because of the angels that women should cover their heads. The role of a women in the church is special and to them alone is the responsibility and the privilege of presenting the church to the angels, man cannot do this.
Let me give my comment, firstly I find very strange of Jeremy Myers comments in everything word of God he comments about, other time was adultery now is woman he sees fit to preach. Let me come to the topic about women, Paul does not silence to teach because the problem in Corinthian’s church what so ever but he simple mentioned why. First let me give you what Paul said, he said Jesus is the head of a man and man is head of woman/wife, 1Cori 11v3,8&9. To understand, know that God gave instructions to man not to woman because he is the head of woman. Paul silenced woman not because of what you think but because woman is created from man. All this comes from the order of creation as God gave law to Adam not to Eve, and was Adam share God’s order to his wife. If your wife gives order to you that’s not the way it happens with God.
Had Jesus said the following there would be no debate.
1 Timothy 2:11-14. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first and then Eve and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor
The problem we have is Jesus never said the above, Paul did. So who is Paul and by what authority did he say this? Was he speaking on behalf of God or was he speaking his own mind?
When Paul says “I” does he simply mean himself? If this was so then he would be using scripture to support his own thoughts and more than that he would be using Gods own handy work ((Adam and Eve) to give credence to his own personal view. Was Paul so reckless to do such a thing and would God allow him to mislead His church, his chosen people? I think not. This is something we are guilty of, not him.
Paul spoke on behalf of God, the same as Jesus did. That is why his words are included in the word of God and have been for the past 2 thousand years. Paul was chosen by God and given authority to speak on His behalf. Some of us may claim the same but beware, if your words do not tally with those of Paul you are mistaken in your belief. People can say anything they want to and debate for ever but none of their words will ever find there way into the Bible, the word of God stands as it is. The “I” in Paul is the “I” in “I am”.
2 Chronicles 19:6
“Consider carefully what you do, because you are not judging for mere mortals but for the LORD, who is with you whenever you give a verdict.
I still cannot believe it is mostly men on here who argue a woman’s position in Church. What are you men scared of? Back in OT David and Solomon had many wives and concubines, it sounds to many of the males on here would be happy to place women in that position again, just keep silent, be a sexual being and breed. Completely cripple a woman’s being by total male control.
Christian men these days are a joke. Look at all the paedophilia in the Catholic Church. How many pastors have been caught out having affairs on their wives, going to prostitutes, and going online dating lines for sex, what had undone David and Solomon was lust for women, but women everywhere are subjected to being told these men are the head of the church as if man himself is unfallable and can do know wrong, but males you do do wrong!.
Paul let women preach, what is so scary about that. A woman wants to tell others about Jesus to spread the gospel and men want to silence her!! What a joke. If God wants to use a person He will, believe me God is not terrified of the gender of male and female.
And why is God raising women up, if men are becoming weaker and not taking on the so called male headship role properly, then of course God will raise up women, you think God will stop having the Gospel spread because a few men on here have a few sexist viewpoints on what is a woman’s place.
I listen to Jesus only, I obey Him. If God puts a man or woman in my path in the Church, I will head their call and listen to them by the truth they speak, not because I’m scared God can only use a particular gender. That otherwise is totally limiting ourselves. Gee God used a donkey to speak, why would He silence a woman?
Women’s head covering is totally taken out of context here, a woman’s hair is her head covering. It would be saying a man who had longer hair was not doing God’s will if he was.
As for whoever put on here, that you would not have a woman tell you what to do, that is so ridiculous. Would you not have listened to any of the women in the Bible God used because of your pride. So you as a male believe you have the right to tell a woman what to do? Silly. That is dominance not Godly love for people. We should do what God leads us to do, people talk to me I won’t stop telling them about Jesus because a few chauvinists on here say so. I will not be silenced on spreading the Gospel for Jesus because I am a woman, and if any man on here would try to do so shame on Him.
How many donkeys? Stay with the bible. Don’t be angry. The Bible didn’t say they couldn’t teach but it did say what they should teach. let the older women teach what Paul and our pastor’s cant teach a woman. Explicitly they should teach them to be chaste, good housekeeper, etc. how to be beautiful woman for Christ. Also a pastor has to have one wife, so a woman can’t be a pastor…
wow, that sounds like a true man hater. Have ya ever thought about the women they got caught with? How many of them were church members? You make it sound like only men cheat or commit adultery/fornication. It goes both ways. The godly women of the Bible weren’t full of pride and full of thjemselves and submitted , willingly, to their husbands. One verse in particular, New Testament too. I bet this one will really reach home to some feminists.
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Wow, Sarah called her husband lord. Willingly no less. Bet their isn’t many women alive these days that would call their husband lord. Lord=someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler. Sarah was a true godly woman. She loved the Lord and submitted to her husband. She didnt argue with him.
God wants us all to spread the gospel regardless of whether we are male or female, nowhere in scripture does God say it’s just a man thing to do!
What God does say however, is that women in the church have a different role to men. We cannot ignore this or get angry about it. If we dismiss certain parts of the Bible because it does not suite our way of thinking we might aswell dismiss the whole lot. What we need to do is seek the truth and do so without getting uptight, jumping on the sexist band wagon and clouding the whole issue with own own prejudice. We need to decide whether we are living according to the word of God or our own ideas of what is right and wrong, in affect we need to ask God if we are truly being obedient to Him or are we in fact eating the forbidden fruit.
Thank you so much for this logical and sensible post. I have given many sermons for the past several years as a part of an internship and festivals and have had issues with feeling confident, even though I find joy in people who get something from my messages. I do believe we disable the Church when we reduce it to a building or a simple organization. I want to contribute to the real Church, and I feel one of the ways I can help is by mission, teaching and preaching the gospel.
All genuine Christians want to be obedient to God and the easier to grasp what God requires from us the easier it is for us to display our obedience to him. In the garden of Eden there was one command and only one. Harmony rested on this one command. That harmony was the balance of Gods authority and mans obedience. When the obedience was broken that harmony was no more. We became separated from God and death entered the world.
Fortunately for us Jesus bridged the gap and through Him that relationship and harmony with God was restored and death no longer has any hold on us.
Today, just as in the garden we have one command and one command only, to believe in Jesus. That entails, listening to Him, knowing Him and following Him forsaking everything else. Not quite as easy as keeping your hands of a tree you might think. However, it is as simple as that. Everything is written down for us in black and white which along with the Holy spirit is all we need to keep us on the right path or should be! Of course we have to contend with those fruit pickers that surround us, chomping away on the fruit that gives them the knowledge of good and evil but through the word of God and the Holy Spirit we are able to see through them and know the truth, aren’t we? So why are we all not singing of the same hymn sheet? What is the problem?
A man known as Brother Yun wrote a book about his experiences as a Christian in China. He suffered massive persecution along with thousands of others. Pins shoved under his finger nails, beaten countless times, imprisoned 7 times, he once had his legs broken and after God told him to get up and walk out of prison he did just that, he fasted for 74 days and lived, he recounts miracles happening daily. He wrote another book after visiting the UK and stated clearly that the one thing missing in our church was without doubt obedience, the very backbone of Christianity!
We are disobedient to God and guess what? we don’t see many miracles, our churches are emptying and we just carry on arguing and sitting on our backsides. Brother Yun is perfectly right. So what can we do about this?
For a start lets take a look at a possible act of obedience and bare in mind those who are deceived by the very nature of being deceived have no idea that is in fact their state, Eve didn’t, she saw something desirable for herself and went with that instead of sticking with what God said.
1 Corinthians 11:2-16
On Covering the Head in Worship
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
7 A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.
Is it possible that such a simple act of obedience could bring about any change in our church? Rather than arguing about head covering consider for a minute that a small change in attire possibly once a week could actually be something God wants! Imagine if it was. Such a simple thing, nothing to do with gender arguments just a simple act of obedience and nothing else. The Bible even says it has some effect on angels! What a fantastic possibility there could be for women to do something for God and angels that no man can do. What if wearing a hat of some description is on the same lines of don’t eat from that tree? What if this is actually what God wants. Can we afford to take the chance it isn’t? Are the problems women will no doubt have with some men more of a concern than the possibility of advancing the kingdom of God? Is this so called equality more attractive than what could in fact be obedience to God? Could it be that women in the church are being robbed of something that they could give to God? Are we in fact in a state of being deceived?
I left the Baptist church after decades and started going to a Mennonite Church. GODLY women there. They respect their husbands, never contradict them, children honor their fathers and mothers, do what they are told when they are asked to do it, women always have their heads covered, very modestly dressed, don’t speak during church services, sing like angels. I’ll never go back to apostate churches. These women love the Lord and aren’t full of pride. Why cant all professing christian women obey the Word like these godly women do?
Terry,
I absolutely agree with what you are saying. I am however confused on what exactly is “teaching”, if I share with a man something I have learned from the bible in my own studies as a single woman and then share it with a man via a conversation is that teaching?
I had sent an email to a man sharing some insights and he sent me a scathing email that I should not teach a man and that I was in dangerous territory. It was very hurtful to me especially since I was simply sharing.
I would really appreciate your thoughts since we have the same view of what St. Paul was teaching.
Angela
If any men are reading, please pay attention. Men who have no empathy are unbelievably hateful toward women who display any hint of spiritual insight, and then have the audacity to speak their insights out loud. This is not what 1 Timothy 2:12 is talking about. That’s talking about actually setting oneself up in the position of teacher (over men). This does not mean that a woman is never allowed to say anything remotely intelligent in the presence of a man, because he might acquire knowledge that he didn’t already have. Neither does it apply to evangelism, just so we’re clear. Mary Magdalene was the first person on earth ever to preach the Resurrection….to men. Where would we be if the apostles had come back at her with “I suffer not a woman to teach a man”, and refused to acknowledge the risen Lord later when He appeared to them, because that would have meant acknowledging that Mary had been right. I’m not trying to dismiss Paul’s teaching, only asking that we use a little common sense in one on one interactions with each other. It’s not appropriate for men to use the Bible to make their female “friends” (that’s in quotes because true friends don’t treat each other this way) shut up every time they feel envious of their insight, and prefer to ignore the wisdom of certain women, rather than praying to God to give them some of their own.
I hate it when men do what your acquaintance did to you. It’s a wicked thing to use the scriptures to harm (what he did) rather than edify (what you were trying to do). Christians are supposed to encourage each other, and simply sharing insights in conversation is not the same thing as positioning oneself as a “teacher”, as in a spiritual mentor, and the responsibility that comes with that. You weren’t trying to disciple him, you were just sharing a thought with someone you thought of as a friend. I encourage you to pray for him, which you probably already are. I don’t mean to encourage you to hold a grudge, by the angry tone of this rant. Remember that Jesus experienced many unjust and false words against Himself. He understands how that feels, and can give us grace to forgive.
(And on a side note, remember that women can teach other women, and children. So if you have a gift of teaching, by all means, use it. Anyone who says women can’t be teachers at all is betraying the fact that on some level, they don’t think women and kids are as important as men are. Otherwise, they wouldn’t say women “can’t be teachers” when what they really mean is teachers of men. The saddest part is that many women think this way as well. I’m still trying to overcome it myself.)
Simply submitting an observation for someone to ponder is not the same thing. Not only that, but I suspect that many women have been shamed into keeping “words of knowledge” etc to themselves because some men are too insecure to ever learn anything from a woman. They don’t stop to consider women are actually being shamed and verbally bludgeoned into “burying” some of their “talent”. If such men had lived in biblical times, I don’t doubt that they would have formed committees to run women like Huldah and Deborah out of town. When people use Bible verses to inflict pain, and make people second guess themselves needlessly, I always think of how the Bible says the word of God is the “sword of the Spirit”. It’s not a toy to be swung around carelessly. It needs to be wielded properly, or people get hurt. Like when we tell small children not to run with scissors. Kids get it, many adults don’t. And remember, the “sword of the Spirit” is for self defense as well. The better you understand the scriptures, the easier it is to defend yourself against attacks. Even you if you don’t say anything out loud to your attacker, as it were, you can still defend yourself in your own mind. For example, I recently allowed someone to put me under condemnation about Sabbath observance, because I was biblically illiterate at the time. Then later, after finding verses in the New Testament that confirmed what I already instinctively knew, I felt so silly for feeling guilty about not observing it “religiously”. Since Paul’s doctrine on women teaching is such a SENSITIVE point for so many women, like myself (I guess it’s my “cross to bear”), and since so many men can be so INSENITIVE about it, it’s essential that we have a well defined understanding about what we can and can’t do regarding our insights. We don’t want to overstep, nor do we want to bury our talent. Keep seeking God diligently, because He rewards those who seek Him diligently, and gives wisdom liberally to those who ask.
Angela,
Thank you for responding. I am so encouraged by what you say. God Bless you for your obedience to Him.
You will NEVER be in dangerous territory sharing anything about your faith in Jesus regardless of what anyone tells you. The enemy will use some so called men and women of God to bring you under condemnation, Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
God will use your desire to be obedient to Him and lead you to where He wants you to be. Have faith in your relationship with Jesus and be confident He will complete the work He started in you. Sometimes it might be difficult for you especially if it appears to be going against the grain but stay true to what you believe God is saying, He is always faithful to those who seek His face.
Paul teaches some very hard things for people to accept these days in our culture but your desire to understand and stay obedient to God regardless of this will bring you so much closer to Him and so much quicker too. He will give you wisdom and revelation and He will restore those years the locust have eaten.
My wife and her friend are the only ladies in my church at present who cover their heads every Sunday morning. They may not know the scriptures back to front or appear to be any great shakes in the church but God is so clearly with them, their relationship together is incredible, I can honestly say they would do anything for each other. God has healed many things in their lives through their relationship together and blessed them. Head covering is not considered to be a big issue in the church but they took it up because they believe it is something God wants and through that one act of obedience He was able to move in their lives.
God tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. We only have one judge and we are responsible for working out the salvation He has given us in order to be judged as faithful servants. We have a great responsibility! You have a fear of God Angela evidenced by your desire to walk close to His word. Be confident in that and trust your heart, it is in His hands, this will allow the Holy Spirit to move through you. Never be afraid or worried about sharing your faith or speaking to someone about what you believe God has given you, the truth is, He very rarely gives us things just for ourselves anyway. It is better to be moving than sitting still doing nothing.
You have not professed to be teaching and nor have you set yourself up as a teacher, you have shared something God gave you and done so in obedience. I’m sorry someone gave you a bad time over this but very often our obedience to God will cost us, there is no denying that. Don’t be surprised if you come against critics when you are following God and don’t be surprised if the worst of them are in the church. Do not doubt for one minute that God has called you, He doesn’t make mistakes, you are called for a specific purpose that only you can do. You are not only unique as an individual but you also belong to a very rare breed of Christianity, you follow St Paul’s teaching! That is a scary combination for some! Don’t worry about the difference between teaching and sharing, follow Jesus with same obedient heart and let Him do the work He wants to do through you.
Sorry Terry I cannot agree with all you state. It is an issue of Biblical Interpretation. So if women are not to teach because Eve was deceived, gee!! but wasn’t Adam deceived too, and Eve was tempted by Satan himself, Adam was just tempted by a ‘mere’ female, he could have said no to Eve. And have we not as Christian been redeemed from the curse of the LAW.that could even stipulate then that God would not want women to teach men because He knew of man’s attitude towards women and that man wanted to RULE (dominate) women.
Women pastor issues in 1 Timothy 2:11-12, women were uneducated at the time, therefore wouldn’t have been able to qualify as teachers. Paul was only dealing with Artemis worship at Timothy’s church in Ephesus. The context and all of 1 Timothy nowhere mention Artemis or the prominence of women in worship of Artemis. If there was a problem with women usurping authority over men in the church in Ephesus, Paul would have addressed it.
Are husbands only to lift hands up in prayer? Are only women to dress modestly? I think both men and women would agree that both men and women should dress respectfully at church. But that then could be false too, as if a homeless person came into the church, would you kick him out because he wasn’t dressed to your liking? Surely as a Christian I would hope not.
There are women in the Bible who served in ways that contradict 1 Timothy- Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Priscilla and Phoebe. Do you want to do away with these women?Priscilla with her husband Aquila, discipled Apollos in their home, Acts 18: 26.
Men, women, Jews, Gentiles, slave and free have equal access to Jesus Christ. Women seem to excel far beyond men in some of the Spiritual gifts and fruits of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 12; Gal 5:22-23.
Plus Jeremy Myers in his picture has long hair, are you saying he shouldn’t preach because he is a man that has longer hair? What about being a bit humble and look at Jesus’ love for us all, then worrying about gender roles. God will use whoever He pleases in His plan, that is both men and women.
He knew of man’s attitude towards women and that man wanted to RULE (dominate) women. That is straightly false doctrine. Read Genesis 3:16 Its the WOman that wants to dominate
Thank you for the responses I gained much insight from them.
I am just happy to know that I can have a conversation/ share insight with a man about scripture and that is not teaching or having authority over him.
This particular person took great offense beyond what was necessary and admonished me very severely so I think that was the more difficult part. I am more then willing to admit if I stepped out of line, however I believe it says in Timothy to “gently rebuke.”
Which makes me think it was my belief in the gospel of grace and the assurance of salvation that was the more offensive part to him and he just used the scripture as a sword against me ( good point tl) Very hurtful indeed.
He is a street preacher who believes that one repents is set free in Jesus and is not longer slave to sin and then one needs to try to be perfect since Jesus is now Lord, so one can get to heaven. I learned that talking to someone who believes this way is not easy yet I may have planted a seed, I can only pray so.
So great to have place like this where we can share our insights in Jesus and receive assurance of our true Sabbath rest who is Jesus.
Angela
Please accept my sincere apologies if I have offended any one by my comments, it certainly hasn’t been my intention. I know I can be a little insensitive at times, like a bull in a China shop ( I’ve been told ) but my motives are genuine and I’m open to learn new things.
When I look at the state of our church (in the West) I can’t help but feel sad and sometimes angry.
I’m not referring to ministries but the general state of our church. We are a long way off what God wants His church to be like. Other churches such as the church in China seem to be taking the brunt of persecution while we seem to be comfortable being comfortable. This can’t be what God wants from us.
I understand that we are a different nation to China and as such we have a different culture, but just as each one of us individually has a different role to play in the body of Christ could that not be the true for different nations? A quick look at the 7 churches in the book of Revelation might suggest it could. Different churches with different attributes with all but one having issues that need to be sorted. If churches can be different then why not nations?
Should we wait for persecution to force us into action or is there something we can initiate now that will allow the Holy Spirit to move in power? Is there something we can fix?
Brother Yun, the author of “Heavenly Man” says in his second book “Living Water” that the one thing we lack in the west is obedience. This is a terrible indictment! no Christian wants to be told they are disobedient to God! However, I believe what he says is true and I think we need to listen to him. We need to fix this or at least look at ways to address it.
Just to be clear, I am not saying our lack of obedience is the fault of woman, to be fair, if we were to apportion blame that could very easily be put at the feet of men as they have mostly been running the show. But let’s leave blame aside. What I am saying is, women have the key to unlocking our church. Obedience is pretty high on God’s agenda, more so than sacrifice and as I have stated earlier I believe women can give God the obedience He wants from our church at this present time. Obedience isn’t just down to women of course but I truly believe it is women who have the key to unlocking this door and bringing about the change God desires.
If we look at obedience in terms of an act then there is something women can do that no man can do. Take away the entire gender argument, who is in charge of who? can women teach? can they preach? can they lead ? etc… and cut it down to one simple statement the Bible makes,
1 Corinthians 11:10
It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels
There is a wonderful truth here “because of the angels”
Did you know Jesus didn’t die for the angels? there is no salvation for them. They have the ability to choose right from wrong (we will judge them) but for them there is no salvation. Jesus as a man could not do anything for them but incredibly the Bible says any woman can! I would guess it relates to the garden of Eden and the fact that woman was deceived by an angel. When we consider head covering we tend to look at the gender issue only, but it clearly goes beyond that.
When a women covers her head in church it has heavenly impact! Obedience in action.
There are some who believe Paul was only relating to things at the church in Corinth, their culture and just for that time. But this is merely replacing background with context, something we can do with any part of the Bible if we want to.
Where there only angels at the church in Corinth and just for that time? If so why doesn’t it say the angels at the church in Corinth? It doesn’t, it actually says churches of God, not even church (singular) of God. It was true for them as it is for us now because We are in fact the churches of God.
16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.
When Paul says “we” he means all the apostles, when we read “we” it means me and you.
Watchman Nee “Being a Christian is a universal matter, not a Corinthian matter”
Jerry,
I am not offended, compared to what I have been through you present the case for a women’s role and wearing a veil very gently.
If I may say two things though, from my own personal trials, it is not a lack of obedience but a lack of grace that is the problem.
As Jerry Bridges states in his book, “The Discipline of Grace” (excellent book by the way)
“Why obey the Lord?” needs to be affirmed in the lives of God’s people everyday. We
obey because of God’s grace. The grace of God should be the focus—the foundation—of every aspect of a believer’s life. Even the obedience necessary for discipleship is secondary to an emphasis on God’s grace.”
Obedience comes from His Grace, that is where we need to be centered.
In a country like China they are under physical persecution so they so much more rely on God’s Grace but we in the West are also under persecution in other ways by “principalities and powers of the air” which we forget about or are ignorant of, since it is less tangible our living in grace is hampered. We see here in our midst in North America a group of believers who only minimally understand the doctrine of grace and our walk is so seriously affected that we have become ineffective in our witness to the gospel.
I have learned this big time these past months coming under the influence of people who while speaking of Jesus deny His Grace. When we live in Grace we obey but it does not even seem like obedience because of how our life is hid in Christ.
Secondly, in my humble opinion, the problems of the western denominations has more to do with the leadership of men who have not lived in God’s Grace and therefore have not lead as they should have. Even if all women in the US and Canada began wearing veils the problems are so systemic I doubt little would change.
As well, God looks at the heart, so if I wear a veil for the wrong reason, just to be obedient eventually I become self-righteous, then I am not living in Grace and not following the instructions that Paul left in his letters. It is because of grace that we do what we do, and that is why we are exhorted to search ourselves.
I too am grieved, very seriously grieved, but I try not to look at the denominations, I know in time those that are truly born again will have their eyes opened and perhaps leave churchianity and will become a small remnant meeting in people’s homes in humility to God and not striving to build larger churches and giving heed to seducing doctrines.
I have learned in His Grace everything is pure and doctrine becomes quite easy.
So blessed to converse with you all,
Angela
Angela, I agree that there are a lot of problems in western denominations as the result of poor leadership but we cannot blame it on that or leave it at that. We also have a responsibility.
Many Christians today merely rest in the Grace of God. Soaking up sermons about the love of God, how He will look after them, how He wraps them up in His love, how they will prosper, how He will heal all their hurts etc..etc. though these may very well be true it is sadly for many where their “Christianity” stops. For these people the grace of God is the be all and end all, it isn’t.
Grace is God’s business not ours.
It is what God gives to us not the other way around. Grace is God’s answer to our disobedience. Prior to disobedience there was no need for grace. Obedience came before grace. The authority of God came before His grace.
Grace does not result in obedience.
It is true that knowing the grace of God should compel us to be obedient to Him. However, we should not assume that knowing or experiencing the grace of God in our lives will automatically lead us to obedience, it doesn’t. Obedience is not a natural act, it is an act of will “Not my will but your will be done” It is not a fact that all Christians are obedient. It is not even a fact that all “Christians” desire to be obedient. Obedience to God will never result in self righteousness it is actually what He wants!
I have to confess to being totally bemused by the negative attitude most people seem to have with this issue of head covering. Was it obedience to God that led us to throw this piece of scripture away? Were we following the word of God when We made it a contentious subject? What was we looking at when we argued about it and threw it out? Where were we looking when we deemed it a void piece of scripture, no longer needed, surplus to requirement, out of date, old fashioned etc..? What does it actually say?
Women ought to have a sign of authority on their heads, all the churches of God not just one, because of the angels, we do not hold any other teaching, it is not a contentious subject!!!!!!!!!!
It might seem a small insignificant issue, but when we are not faithful in small things God cannot take us any further.
Zechariah 4:10
“Who dares despise the day of small things,…
We need to stop cherry picking scripture and start being obedient.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
I deeply enjoyed this post!
My thought is any seat of ministry, whether in worship or speaking, the goal is to bring God glory, to edify the church, and to bring sheep into the flock. It isn’t a question of gender. God doesn’t require that every preacher be Verbal Bean or Charles Spurgeon cookie cutters. He isn’t a respecter of men. He is just looking for humble, willing vessels.
I am a woman Pastor. I began as a ‘street minister’ & Co-Pastor, years ago. It is very important for me to be pleasing in the eyes of our Lord, & to check to make sure that I do not wander into error. This verse has bothered me for many years; I wasn’t sure if it was because I didn’t want to hear or believe it, Or if it was because I felt there was more to what Paul was saying. As a child, I was stifled & hardly allowed to voice my thoughts or give input to conversations. As a young adult, when I became Born-again & filled with the Holy Spirit: I suddenly was set free to speak God’s Word. I figure that if the Lord did not want me to speak, minister, preach etc… then He would not give me the words to speak. So many times, the Holy Spirit will speak through me & it is later confirmed by a credible minister or Pastor…Why? Because we have the same Holy Spirit! I also figure that as long as my husband is content with me as Pastor, then I am in submission to him as well as the Lord. So many times…I have met women who outwardly ‘act’ submissive & even ‘remain silent in the church’; however, they are rebellious, controlling, & manipulative witches behind closed doors. So….I will continue to follow my heart, because the Holy Spirit lives in it!… Thank You all for your various comments!
The fact that I do it and it seems to work or I am comfortable with it does not provide evidence of it being right any more than the behaviour of some “manipulative witches”proves the same. If you are able to base your arguments on scripture then you should do so.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Jeremy, is there something wrong with your website? All the recent posts that disagreed with your opinions have been deleted leaving just those that agree with you.
Terry,
I do not attend any denomination so I am not sure I can say much else around the problems that exist in those buildings.
Grace is the only power unto a holy life, it is the ultimate persuasion ….unfortunately Grace has been redefined in modern evangelicalism as overlooking sin and this it is not. We are obedient to Grace and thereby persuaded and enabled to live as God intended.
The goal of the Christian life is to grow in faith, in relationship with Jesus. As we draw near to Him and walk with Him, we will find ourselves obeying almost without thought. It will be natural for us. If people are not obeying they are not living in Christ! It is not a lack of will it is a lack of right belief of who we are in Jesus.
I have done some reading/studying on the passage in scripture on the wearing of a veil and I must say there is a strong case to be made that Paul was referring to the length of hair as a covering as opposed to a piece of cloth. In the end Paul states that nature itself tells us that man should have short hair and women long hair which can be a covering for her.
So if Jesus has fulfilled the Law why would He now add a new Law (wearing a veil) in the New Testament which was never even part of the Old Testament Law. If we are to be obedient then it is like having a Law over us again? This is the part that does not make sense to me.
Just some thoughts as I work through some of the ideas presented.
Angela
The Bible often uses nature to teach us things and show us how it reflects God. Paul asks us to consider this in view of what he is saying. It is natural for women to have long hair and men to have short hair, it isn’t a law or a rule just the natural way it has always been. He asks to us to look at how we value our hair, what it means to us and to consider this in view of what he is teaching.
1 Corinthians 11
13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
Paul is not saying that long hair provides the head covering he is talking about, he is merely saying look at it this way. Jesus used the same teaching method, for example look at the birds of the air or See how the flowers of the field grow, there are many other examples.
Paul says if a woman has long hair it is her glory. He does not say it is to the Glory of God but rather it is her glory, the glory of long hair belongs to her not God. Paul is saying, look at how we naturally value our hair and what it means to us, he draws our attention to the very nature of things. Women like to have their hair long and it is natural for them to take care of it, shape it and take great pride in the appearance of it, it is her glory. As a woman’s hair is naturally important to her she would not want to have it shaved off as that would would be a disgrace for her. Paul draws attention to what is naturally important to us and what God has given us to help us understand what he is getting at.
In verse 5 and 6 Paul says this
5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
What Paul is saying here is, if a woman would not want the disgrace of having her hair cut off or her head shaved then she should have the same attitude towards God and cover her head.
13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
A lot of people confuse the last part of what Paul says in verse 15 to mean a woman’s long hair is the head covering that he is talking about,
15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
This is not the head covering Paul is talking about. This is the covering God gave to her, to be given something is to receive it. When Paul says a woman should cover her head he is saying it is something she should do as opposed to something she has received. Doing something and receiving something are clearly not the same. When Paul talks about a woman’s hair it is not in reference to any act that she performs with it, including letting it grow long for that has already been given to her. Paul makes this clear when he says,
6” For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off.”
If a woman’s hair is the head covering he is talking about then why cut it off if she does not cover her head? Her hair would be the covering!
The observations that Paul made all those years ago as to the nature of things are the same today, we still place the same value on our hair, nature has not changed in that respect and in the same way neither has the church or Paul’s instructions to it. Just out of interest, were the men in the church at Corinth wandering around with long hair?
The fact is, the issue is not about hair, long or short, it relates to the head as Paul states from the very start,
3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head—it is the same as having her head shaved.
When a woman does not cover head in church it dishonours her head and as Paul states clearly the head of the woman is man. What this means is, Women in church who do not cover their heads are dishonouring men and in doing so would obviously be dishonouring God. There is no soft way of putting this, it is a fact.
“So if Jesus has fulfilled the Law why would He now add a new Law (wearing a veil) in the New Testament which was never even part of the Old Testament Law?”
Staying with 1 Corinthians 11
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me”
We don’t have a problem eating flesh and drinking blood but we have a problem with wearing a hat?
Head covering actually goes as far back as Genesis when a woman removed her veil in the garden of Eden. Until women put it back on, the church will remain exactly the same.
Terry
Terry,
Genesis was prior to the giving of Law and there is not a Law that women are to wear veils, I have done the research on this. The fact that you put the wearing of the veil back again to the problems in modern day churches speaks volumes around your unbiblical view of women and your reductionist thinking and I think now I am offended.
Some of what you say above is true men are not to cover their heads because they are the glory of God …that much I can agree with. However what Paul was addressing was a complex issue happening in Corinth at the time around women and how they were wearing their hair and how the should dress for assembly.
Here is the best information with a detailed examination of this scripture passage. I pray you will take the time to read it.
http://inthelightcommentary.com/1-corinthians-11-hair-and-coverings/#comment-17
The author states and I agree this to be true….
“The reality is that neither the apostle Paul, nor any of the other apostles, where sent by God to legislate new rules or laws for the New Testament church. They where sent to preach the Gospel, administer the new covenant and to make disciples. The emphasis was always on grace as opposed to the difficulty of the Law of Moses.”
I pray that you will come to understand what Paul was really teaching here.
Angela
I have repeatedly said the problem with the western church today is disobedience. We cherry pick scripture and even re-write it to suit ourselves. We treat Holy Scripture like a restaurant menu, picking and choosing what to eat. We say it is the word of God when it suits and it’s Paul or some worldly stuff when it doesn’t suit our appetites.
I have never put the blame for this at the feet of women but I have said again and again that women can put obedience back into our failing church and in a way that no man can.
I have never said there was an Old Testament law for head covering or related anything to the law of mosses.
What I tried to point out was the fact that we do things today such as take communion that are very much part of the New Covenant or Testament, Baptism would be another. We don’t view these in terms of laws or rules. But everything does however relate back to the Old Testament. Does not Baptism relate to Noah?
Scripture continuously takes us back to creation, the Old Testament when talking about the role of man and woman in Church and 1 Corinthians 11 is no exception.
1 Corinthians 11:7-10
7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels.
This is not addressing a complex cultural issue for people over 2 thousand years ago!
Genesis and creation predate the church at Corinth… It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her head, …..creation has nothing to do with cultural issues.
When we view 1 Corinthians 11 on a cultural level we dismiss it as having no spiritual value. When we view things with earthly eyes we get an earthly answer, we look at things purely in terms of rules or laws. We even dismiss there being any spiritual value in it for the select few we have decided it was written for when we say it was merely a cultural issue! How very odd! We need to keep our eyes on Christ and look beyond the world. When we fail to do this we fall into error.
Philippians 2
5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
We are to have the same mindset as Christ Jesus.
Do we truly believe some scripture is worldly in nature? Because that is exactly what we are saying when we say it is a cultural issue, cultures are worldly. It is a very dangerous path to go down.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
No scripture is worldly in nature, to continue preaching that it is, is to preach heresy. This is a serious matter.
Galatians 5:9
“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”
1 Corinthians 11 is not talking about the length of our hair or some distant cultural issue within a Church in Corinth. It is talking about head covering in a spiritual manner (hair covers the physical head) It is talking about our attitudes towards each other and God.- 1 Corinthians 11:3.
I’ve read what Rene Rubio has to say, he’s on dodgy ground.
Terry
I think we should stop blaming women in pulpit ministries and start blaming the God that called them into His service.
This is the word of God.
1 Timothy 2:11-13
…11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.…
This is the word of God.
Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
This is ignoring the word of God.
Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
We cannot blame God when we ignore Him. It is not God that calls someone into a service that contradicts His word.
Terry
Terry, I really think it is of no use sharing any topic with you about women in Church. If I say anything to defend women you say I am angry. The problem is not women or what they wear, the problem is your perception of what women should be. Your teaching is under the law, not the grace of God, if this does not get posted so be it, I know my Lord and Savior loves me. It is not for anyone else. If no one agrees with you you consider us Western ‘witches’. How encouraging is that to any female on the planet. You are hiding behind your chauvinist attitude using the word of God as your defence! Your attitude is misogyny, which is why you keep responding with your negative attitude against females. Then you say it is God’s word.
I have never referred to women as “witches”. I am not a chauvinist or a misogynist. I have a very positive attitude towards women and have stated on numerous occasions that I believe it is women who will take the church forward at this time and that is by way of obedience.
There is no doubt the church is failing at the moment. Our failure is due to our allowing the enemy to have a foothold on the very word of God. In allowing this we have put down the only offensive weapon we have in our armour. As a result of this we spend most of our time on the defence and with self indulgent Christianity.
Ephesians 6:17
17 …….. the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
The devil knows our greatest weapon is the word of God.
First line of attack.
The very first thing the devil did in his attempt to deceive man was to misuse the word of God, he purposefully misquotes Him.
Genesis 3:1
“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
God did not say this.
The devil even tried to attack Jesus with the word of God!
Matthew 4:6
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”
The difference between Eve and Jesus was the ground they stood on. Jesus knew the word of God and answered the devil with it. Eve did not know the word of God as evidenced in her reply to the serpent, she herself misquotes God.
The second line of attack, temptation.
Genesis 3:6
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
Jesus replied with the word of God. Eve took a look and acted on what she saw. Knowing the word of God and acting in accordance with it is our only way of defeating the enemy.
The devil has not changed his method of attack and like it or not he is inside the western church via the misuse of God’s word and winning. The church is full of false teaching, false prophets and far too many itching ears.
The way out of this lies in the hands of women just as it was in the garden of Eden. Following the instructions of the new covenant is not being under law it is being obedient.
John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commands.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
These are just a few examples. There is no question as to God loving you, the question is how much do you love Him?
Terry
Terry, what do you call this-Terry says April 10, 2016 at 2:06 pm
The fact that I do it and it seems to work or I am comfortable with it does not provide evidence of it being right any more than the behaviour of some “manipulative witches”proves the same. If you are able to base your arguments on scripture then you should do so.
You clearly HAVE called women manipulative witches. What would you like to do with your misogyny, burn these women at the stake. Funny that all you do is talk about Eve, and seem to forget Adam also sinned and ate, but you did not mention Adam did you?
Penny,
I was quoting Sandra Norris, a woman pastor who stated in her post prior to mine that she has met some women (presumably in “her” congregation) who “..are rebellious, controlling, & manipulative witches” Those are her words not mine.
You are right in saying I don’t mention Adam.
1 Timothy 2:14
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
The church today is standing on the same ground that woman stood on in the garden of Eden. They have been deceived by the very same serpent and by the very same methods (as I described earlier) with men merely standing in line just like Adam.
The power to change things does not lie with men it is in the hands of women. It is only women who can give God the obedience He requires to move His church forward at this time and make no mistake we are in the last days. Cherry picking or dismissing the word of God (as is the case with 1 Corinthians 11) in order to justify our own idea of what is right and wrong is the result of listening to the lies of the serpent. In placing women in authority over men we are in fact eating the forbidden fruit.
1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,and the head of Christ is God.
We are yet to realise this.
Terry
Act 2:17 Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
1 cor 14:34 speak in greek is laleo mean (I talk, chatter in classical Greek, but in NT a more dignified word) I speak, say.
The bible has to reconcile.
So this means both men and women should not chatter while worship is going on in the church.
We must use our wisdom to handle the word of God. God blessed.
This text is so biased it is ridiculous. The writer links 1Cor14:34 with other texts without even knowing what they say (eg: Paul did NOT state that women should wear head coverings (v5 etc etc) – if you read a LITTLE further down to Verse 15 he confirms that “head covering” refers to a woman’s hair – and (original Greek translation) he does even not state whether it is long or short, just that she should not shave her head. This writer needs to research facts.
The commenter needs to be a little more thoughtful and gracious in their comments. Little do they know that the writer of this post has degrees in Bible and theology, knows Greek and Hebrew, and has written an entire commentary on 1 Corinthians, looking at the historical, cultural, and grammatical contexts.
The writer of this post knows that Paul states in 1 Cor 11:15 that hair is given to a woman as a covering, but also knows that earlier Paul states that if a man prays with his head covered, it is dishonorable (1 Cor 11:4). So if hair is always a covering, then this means that men should shave their heads before praying. Clearly, this cannot be correct either. Therefore “head covering” does not always refer to hair.
Do you know that a woman’s “head covering” is specifically applied to her hair, and this can be long or short since the original Greek text simply says “hair,” and not ‘long hair’ as mistranslated in the NIV. See V15. Also for a man to be shamed by having his head covered simply means that he should not emulate women. For goodness sake, think about it.
CeeBee…
Quick question for you … are you a woman or a man?
what grek text are you using? I remeber my Bible saying LONG hair is a woman’s glory, not short hair
Many over look the Setting on the Text. Where was Timothy? What was he dealing with? Who were the women in question? What had these women been taught before Christianity?
Many also fail to look at Paul’s word choice here…”I”. Every other Place where Paul say “I”, churches say well that part is Paul’s opinion not a commandment. For example where Paul gives his opinion to marry or not to marry. Yet, when Men get to 1 Tim 2:12 all of a sudden Paul’s “I” is an All Time Commandment from the Lord.
Many also forget that even Paul said, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” Which means that Scripture must be compared to Scripture. If one finds a contradiction that means that one section is not be Understood correctly.
Here we have only One Verse that says Women are not allowed to have Authority or Teach. Yet we have 100’s if not more Verses that say Women can Preach. So what does that tell you?
Now add to that the fact that Many World Renown Biblical Scholars don’t even believe Paul wrote 1Timothy 2Timothy or Titus. And they have really good evidence for their argument.
I personally do believe he wrote them. I don’t believe that they were translated correctly and I Know they are Misunderstood.
1 Timothy 2:12 is pretty much self-explanatory along with 1 Timothy 3:17 and Titus 1:6-9 makes it plain the man is to lead (pastor, preacher, teacher) the church. What are the hundreds (or more) of verses that say women can preach?
Everyone uses 1 Timothy 2:12 (But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.) to say that women can’t preach. Looking at the original Greek the word for woman and the word for man in Greek is the same for wife and husband. The verse could be Translated as: 12 But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband, but to remain quiet. — Also if you look at Paul’s other letters he used women to preach to men all the time. He even sent a Woman to read his letter Romans 16 to the church body. There are many places in the New Testament where Paul and Peter both had no problem with women having the same roll and authority as any male preacher would. — So I look to what Timothy was dealing with… A pagan religion in the town where he was(Ephesus). That religion was controlled and taught by women. Those women taught that Eve was created first and other false teachings. Paul warned to stop such things in 1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies.— Which leads me to believe that G-d can call a Woman to preach if he wants and No Man has a right to Stop her. I believe that Paul was speaking about these women who were False Priestess of a pagan faith trying to distort Christianity. I do not believe he was speaking of all women of all times. — Another thing to consider, the Greek word used for “Authority” in 1 Timothy 2:12 has only been used Once in the whole Bible. 1 Tim. 2:12 does not use the normal Greek word for authority (exousia)—it uses the rare Greek verb authenteō. This “authenteō” has been said to mean : kill, sexual dominance, criminal force.— If you look at what those Pagan Women where teaching in their temple, these definitions make sense. They taught False teachings…”god is a women, sacrifice men, force men to part take in orgies, and force some men to become eunuchs, and Only Women could have Authority in their Temple and religion.— And of course we also have Deborah from the Old Testament. I ask 3 different Rabbis from 3 different Jews websites about her. They all said she was their Judge and Spiritual Leader with all the same Authority that Moses had and in fact to this day her song is sung in the Temple only second to Moses. —Then there is what Jesus commanded that his Leaders would Not have Authority over the Body of Christ, they would in fact be Slaves to the Body.
So how do you feel about this subject and what Scripture Proof do you have for your feelings? Thank you for your time on this subject of such importance. As it has chained and shut up more than half the Body of Christ.
God can’t call a women to preach because then He would be going against His word. Deborah didn’t preach or pastor a church and the only reason she rose to a position of leadership is because the nation of Israel was in a state of apostasy at the time. The reason there are woman preachers today is because the church is in a state of apostasy. I just read Romans 16 and it said nothing about God sending a woman to read his letter to the church body. There’s nothing to feel about the subject.
You are Wrong I will pray for you. Deborah was both Judge and Spiritual Leader and she had a husband. Ask any Rabbi, I have ask many of them and they all Said she was their Spiritual Leader, her song is sung 2nd only to Moses. There were many men at the time that could have lead, But G-d Chose Deborah.
G-d didn’t say women can’t preach……Paul did. Just like Paul said it was better to stay single. Paul used “I” in the verse not G-d commanded. Sorry if that makes you feel small because G-d gives all his Children Equality.
We are all one in Christ Jesus and a Woman did Read Paul’s letter and He told them to treat her as they would treat him.
And by the way Jesus told us he would build his church on Peter…..Not Paul, so how much of Peter have you study?
Stop following the Roman Tradition of keeping women “Seen but Not Heard”.
Junia Project.com
A study of Paul’s letters shows that he regularly used a form of the Greek “exousia” when referring to the use of authority in the church (see 1 Cor 6:12, 7:4, 1 Cor 6:12, 7:4, 9:4-6, 9:12, 11:10, 2 Cor 2:8, 10:8, 13:10, Col. 1:13, 2 Thess 3:12, Rom 6:15, 9:21).
So it is strange that (Authentein) some modern versions translate this simply as “authority”. Considering the context, it is likely that he was objecting to something other than the legitimate use of authority.
The Greek Word Authentein is only used Once in the Whole Bible. In 1 Timothy 2:12. Which clearly means Paul was not talking about general “Authority”. I must also note here that Paul clearly states “I” do not permit”… he never said G-d does not permit. And rightly so because there are too many expamples of G-d calling women to deliever his word in the same way he has called men.
Definitions
Exousia: (Strong’s Greek- Bible Hub.com) (a) power, authority, weight, especially: moral authority, influence, (b) in a quasi-personal sense, derived from later Judaism, of a spiritual power, and hence of an earthly power.
In the NT, 1849 /eksousía (“delegated power”) refers to the authority G-d gives to His saints – authorizing them to act to the extent they are guided by faith (His revealed word).
copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
For complete text and additional resources visit:
HelpsBible.com
Authertein: (Strong’s Greek- Bible Hub.com)I domineer, govern, have mastery over. authentéō (from 846 /autós, “self” and entea, “arms, armor”) – properly, to unilaterally take up arms, i.e. acting as an autocrat – literally, self-appointed (acting without submission).
copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
For complete text and additional resources visit:
HelpsBible.com
a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author” (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινς, 1 Timothy 2:12.
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com
So Paul wasn’t saying Women can’t be Called by G-d……He was saying women can’t call themselves and they can’t use Violent Criminal Abusive Authority.
No one is saying women can’t be called by God. They’re just not called to teach men or pastor a church.
They can be Called By G-d To Preach and Teach Men and Pastor a Church. The Calling they receive is up to G-d. Not you Craig Giddens.
And My G-d can do anything he wants.
They may call themselves to preach or a church or denomination may call a woman to preach, but God will never call a woman to preach as long as His word stands.
G-d Never said a Woman can’t Preach. Paul did, and he was talking about a group of women who were spreading False genealogies and pagan traditions. Research the original Greek. That is all I can tell you.
Pray on this please and stop listening to men. Listen to Heavenly Father. If you really study Paul you will find that when he says, “I”, he is referring only to his own opinion. When he says, “G-d”, he is giving commandments. There is a difference.
I bet you have no problem with a Man preaching who has kids that are not walking with Jesus. Check out 1 Timothy 3. And tell us all why these churches that don’t let women preach because of 1 Tim 2:12……allow Men to preach that have been divorce and or have kids that don’t follow Jesus.
Angie, There are many men who agree with you. I do. May God use you in the work to which he has called you.
The question is are you going to agree with God and His word or men?
Craig, I will not debate you on the issue. You and I do not have the same understanding of what the Bible says on this. I am not framing this as a matter of you not agreeing with God, and you will do well not to frame it in that manner also. Rather than getting someone to come to understand things as we do, framing an issue in that manner tends to have the opposite effect.
Amen thank you Sam. I for one will not suffer the fate of Jonah when he refused to answer his call. What Craig doesn’t understand is that G-d never changes and he has called and will call Women to what he wants. Not what Men like Craig want.
For whatever reason for some men the idea of a Woman being called to Preach makes them feel small or less important. That is their hang up, not mine or G-d’s. What these men fail to realize is that Sunday School teaching, Book Writing(Christian Books), Blogging(Christian Blogs), and even commenting on articles is all a form of Preaching and Teaching G-d’s word.
Yet, they have no problem with women doing these things. Just so long as she doesn’t become an Ordained Minister.
Please show me in Scripture where any man became an Ordained Minister as Required by today’s standards……Can’t cause it never happened.
Sam
It’s not a matter of your or my understanding of the Bible. Its a matter of what the Bible says. Granted there are things in the Bible that are, as Peter says, hard to be understood, but the issue of a woman as a pastor isn’t one of them. It plainly says a woman is not to teach or usurp authority over the man. All qualifications for leadership in the church is given to men. There are no female apostles or pastors in the Bible. God not calling a woman to be a pastor is not my position; its God’s position as outlined in His word.
God can and does call women into ministry, but He plainly says in His word that a woman can’t teach or usurp authority over men so He will never call a woman to pastor a church or preach or teach men. The Bible doesn’t say the woman is not allowed to ever talk to a man about the Lord. I do not believe it is wrong for a woman to give her testimony and to share Christ with men in a casual setting. What 1 Timothy 2:12 means that the woman cannot teach with authority; this is the context. Examples are teaching from the pulpit, teaching Sunday School classes, teaching at Bible conferences, Bible colleges & on the radio, TV or internet (which is by far the greatest way that Woman preachers reach not only women but other men as well). When a woman preaches she is taking authority in a role that God has never called her to as God will not contradict his Word and His Word is clear on this matter. There is no more authoritative thing in the world than to teach or preach the Bible. God’s Word forbids a woman to do that.
Your disagreement is not with me or Paul, but with what God has plainly stated in His word. Everything that is recorded in Paul’s epistles is inspired by God.
There are NO women apostles. The passage you used in Romans 16:7 does NOT say anything about a woman being an apostle. You are manipulating the scriptures. As a Christian for more than 20 years, I am tired of men in “authority” who manipulate and distort the Word of God. Perhaps you ought to read James 3:1.
You must not be familiar with Romans 16:7. It contradicts your fist sentence.
Taking the Old and New Testaments and the history of all that they contain- and looking at the behavior expected and spoken of, the notion of men being the leaders in church, at home, in the world is something that God speaks of as expected all around. In Genesis women were to be the help-meet for the man. So, I can see myself listening to a woman who’s husband was a pastor and who left his wife in charge until he returned. I can see myself listening to a woman in a congregation where all the men are gone to fight a war and only the women and children are left and I stumbled into. But, I can not see myself sitting in a pew week after week listening to a woman who attempts to stand as a man when there are good, Godly men in sufficient quantity to serve the Lord. I also say with absolute certainty that my wife agrees with this. Yes, she would step up to the plate if no men were available but if a Godly man was standing in the sanctuary and he gave over leadership of the church to a woman???? No doubt about it, we both do not believe that God intended for women to be preachers, or priestesses, or leaders in the church except for tending to the women and the children. Until I see it where God says differently in scripture, I guess you can paint me a follower of Christ to the best of my understanding.
Rob, With respect, is the church just a hall where people sit in pews listening to sermons. If not, then maybe the issue of ” teaching’ and “leadership” is much more complex than we might think, especially if we realize that the western comfortable “sanctuary” is not the experience of many Christians around the world.
I have experience of a church leadership being strongly attached to the supposed unbreakable rule of male dominance and female submissiveness in the church. At the same time not seeming to have noticed what Jesus said about not adopting ranks and titles and authoritarian hierarchy and about how His disciples were to learn to serve each other and not to lord it over one another.
Doesn’t the rule book bring the danger of turning grace into law.
The Word of God is given to us not just for information but also for transformation,it’s good to know all of these doctrines,cultural backgrounds exegesis and diffirent interpretations, but if our lives doesn’t display,practice righteousness and living out the full Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ then all of these knowledge are nothing but empty boxes.
For me it doesn’t matter whether my pastor is a man or a woman as long as there is holiness in his/her life, that through him/her you can see Jesus and living what they preach.
I’m not being judgemental but A lot of people I know they filled their mind of knowledge yet they are empty of holiness. There are some churche who has female pastors but it’s obviously more effective interms of managing there flocks than some of the male pastors I know.
My question: is Paul trying to express/impose his views to a certain church and it doesn’t mean these was been approved by the majority of the disciples? And need to practice by the whole churches during his time?
Please enlighten me?
The Bible is clear that a woman is not to teach or have authority over men. (1 Timothy 2:12)
Deborah and Lemuels mother in the old testament contradicts your interpretation of that verse. What’s clear is your ignorance and pride.
The Bible is also clear that the church is forbidden to have titles, ranks and domineering rulership. Matt 23. Mark 10.
I have met ardent proponents of supposed female subordination and I see that these people insist on their titles and ranks, and are noted for giving orders and taking charge.
By the way, it could also be argued that the Bible clearly teaches that if our hand or eye causes us to sin we are to cut our hand off or poke our eye out. Matt. 18. I don’t see too many one handed, one eyed penitents about. And we might wonder how a hand or an eye can be the cause of behaviour.
What the Bible teaches is not always as clear as the clarity that seizes the minds of some interpreters.
Matthew 23 and Mark 10 are not addressing the issues of titles and rank in the church. Is the Bible commanding people to cut off their hand or pluck out their eye or is He teaching that hell is so horrible of a place that it would be better to lose a limb than go their? Studying the normal menaing of words in the context of the verses, studying verses in their context and comparing with scripture with scripture clears up a lot of confusion.
I am with you Craig on the context.
I am not so sure about verses, the chapters and verses were a later addition that, for me, often seems to obscure the message.
I have an English translation of the New Testament that omits chapters and verse numbers and the impression one gets from reading it in that way, I find , is remarkably fresh and enlightening.
And your reply, with respect, brings out the point I was making and as Mr Myers also makes. That things that are declared to be clear commands of scripture are so often interpretations and the meaning is not as clear as it seems until we have, as you rightly said, compared scripture with scripture.
In other words; some say that women in the church for all time and places are commanded to be silent, I don’t read that. I read that Jesus followers are always commanded not to have ranks and titles in the church, you don’t read that.
Perhaps we can work it out if we compare it with the scriptures that clearly says ” A person who claims to be united with Him ( Jesus ) ought to conduct his life the way He did ” 1 John.
Paul tells us to study and rightly divide the word of truth. There are truths and principals for us all throughout the Bible, but if you want to understand church age doctrine you focus on Paul’s epistles as he is the apostle to the Gentiles and he received his revelation from Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it say women in the church for all time and places are commanded to be silent. It does however tell us a woman is not to teach or have authority over the man.
Craig; The question posed at the beginning of this post was ” Is it wrong for women to preach in church or be a pastor ” Nowhere in the Bible are women forbidden to be preachers or pastors. If women are not to have authority over men then that does not stop them being preachers or pastors, because pastors or preachers are not invested with authority over anyone.
Rightly divide the word indeed. Paul’s advice about women’s conduct in the ecclesia was directed to his friend Timothy. On what grounds do we extrapolate them as directed to us.
A careful consideration of Paul’s advice ( and it is advice, it is not declared as commands or doctrines) in its context shows that Paul was not a stern male dominance commander but in fact a kindly careful man who was concerned about marriage relationships and concerned that the new freedom in Christ should not be misused as a disruption to the stability of the traditional marriage roles.
In fact Paul in another place declares that in Christ there is no male/female, Jew/Greek, slave or free. In other words no social distinctions apply in the ecclesia. Gal. 3
In the congregation where I have been a member I have heard so much preaching …Paul said this and Paul said that….. I wonder sometimes if we are not the church of Paul rather than the church of Christ.
Whatever Paul’s inspiration, we are to be disciples of Christ not disciples of Paul. ( and that was something Paul himself emphasised ) 1 Cor 1.
As I read and try to learn from the bible what I find is that is not a neat and orderly file of prescriptions.
The bible is untidy, it is paradoxical, it swirls around out of chronological order, it declares God’s sovereignty and argues with God, it leaves gaps in stories, it is clear and incisive it is also dense and impossibly puzzling.
In other words it is the ultimate creativity, free wheeling and surprising. Now we see Him, now we don’t. God, that wonderful Lord who is just too big to be constrained by our petty search for something to put in a box, God is out and about and out of our control.
I read through the bible like any book, start at the front page go through to the last page and I find that the truth is an eternal infinite person, more finally than interpretation of doctrines and dogma.
While Jesus was here on Earth He did everything for a reason. He called twelve apostles (men) and He ordained them. When Jesus instituted the Last Supper, He ate at the table with the twelve apostles. If any women were around, they were not invited. The twelve tribes of Israel were men. I firmly believe Jesus did not call or ordain women for a reason. That reason is simply, women are not to lead in the church. We cannot compare the world to the church or treat the church like the corporate world. God’s word does not change, we do! His word is true and will remain so no matter what we think about it.
You are spot on Doris. Simple, clear, and easily understood; as Christ would have us understand all biblical writings.
As well, Paul did not give direction to the church to hear himself talk.
You either acknowledge that the Bible is the Holy word of God, or you do not. You do not “use” passages for your your own vanity/arguments. The new Testament “puts away” the law via GRACE. Attempting to live/argue points of biblical testament as LAW alone; without the grace of God will surely cause you to fall.
The New Testament was given to us so we would not be judged UNDER the old testament law.
If you believe the Bible to be God’s Holy word – He chose Paul for a reason – Paul’s letters and writings speak of women not preaching/holding authoritative position in the church. How much simpler can that be?
Throughout Romans and Acts, Paul, with certainty, discussed the importance of both women and men in the church without condemnation of the sexes. But let’s remember folks, the Holy Bible is God’s word, Spirit inspired, and it’s messages should neither be “construed” to fit an “agenda,” nor overlooked for the simplicity of their intended meaning/purpose.
I have had the humble privilege to serve the Lord Having as a linguistics spet in the literal translation field for nearly 40 years, I have had time to research out a host of Hebrewic and Greek textual translations throughout the Bible. I consider myself by no means an expert. However, Paul’s letters to the Corinthians and Timothy concerning women and their roles within the church are very clear and consistent in their literal translation when profoundly researched in MATHEWS COMMENTARY, Strongs Concordance, the NIV, KJV, AKJV, AMP; ect. Even the Latin Vulgate translation (mostly used in Western Europe at the time) concurs with the intended meaning across the board.
Lastly, my opinion is just that. One either believes that the Bible is the Holy sovereign word of God, or they do not.
yours in Christ………
I’m always distraught by the fact that there are women who simply accept the idea they are forbidden to teach men about God, without any willingness to investigate the historical contexts of the verses used to justify that idea. You’re being restricted by men from teaching about Jesus ministry and salvation, something that effects our eternal security, simply because of who you are, not even giving anyone of your gender a chance, and don’t even care.
The twelve disciples are also referred to as the apostles, and Jesus had many more disciples besides them, and said to the people he revealed himself to after his resurrection to make disciples of all nations. The twelve were simply a representation of the twelve tribes of Israel.
neville briggs says “If women are not to have authority over men then that does not stop them being preachers or pastors”
Craig’s reply: Paul specifically says the woman isn’t to TEACH or have AUTHORITY over the man (1 Timothy 2:12), therefore a woman can’t be a pastor or preacher.
neville briggs says “Paul’s advice about women’s conduct in the ecclesia was directed to his friend Timothy. On what grounds do we extrapolate them as directed to us.”
Craig’s reply: Paul wasn’t advising Timothy, he was giving a command for the church. You may as throw away your Bible since none of it is addressed to Neville.
neville briggs says “In fact Paul in another place declares that in Christ there is no male/female, Jew/Greek, slave or free. In other words no social distinctions apply in the ecclesia. Gal. 3”
Craig’s reply: That passage has to do with salvation and standing in Christ. However, the same God who inspired Galatians 3 also inspired 1 Timothy 2:12.
neville briggs says “In the congregation where I have been a member I have heard so much preaching …Paul said this and Paul said that….. I wonder sometimes if we are not the church of Paul rather than the church of Christ.”
Craig’s reply: Paul received his revelation from Jesus Christ so if you don’t follow what Paul says then you are not a follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus gave instructions to the church through the Apostle Paul.
neville briggs says “God, that wonderful Lord who is just too big to be constrained by our petty search for something to put in a box, God is out and about and out of our control.”
Craig’s reply: True, we can’t put God in a box, but neither can we dishonor Him by ignoring or twisting His word.
Craig,
To disagree on interpretation is one thing. To make a charge of dishonouring, ignoring God and twisting scripture is a serious allegation.
Did I claim that that none of the bible is addressed to me. Isn’t that twisting my words.
you stated “Paul’s advice about women’s conduct in the ecclesia was directed to his friend Timothy. On what grounds do we extrapolate them as directed to us.”
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The problem with this is that people have assumed the canonization of Paul’s words, giving him unquestionable equality to Christ himself. Paul himself in regards to this very point says that he is but a fellow worker like any saved member of Christ’s body. He said, “you people over there claim you follow Paul, you people over there claim you follow Apollos. But we are merely workers.” Vis a vis, it is christ who we owe our Salvation and enlightenment to. Christ is the great leveller. And when we look at such places as Ephesians chapter 2 then we see, indeed, Paul himself says that the old situation of differentiation created only by men, never by God- these differences are now defunct, in Christ. Paul explicitly says that, in Christ, there are no gender distinctions- in Ephesians 2, he further States there are no class distinctions in the same chapter and he also says that there are no nationality distinctions. Why? Because all are exactly equal in Christ. The ground, for the first time, is level for all in Christ, and there is no difference between women and men. Therefore, it is wrong to assert that Paul’s word is unquestionable. He is not Christ. He does not commune with God in the same way that the messiah IS God Himself. Paul has no entitlement to write new commands. Paul further states in his treatise concerning the woman teacher – “in my church.” Again: MY church. He is not giving a universal command to all churches. And I tell you, if some man comes to my congregation, needing everything spiritual and having nothing of the same; and should a woman be present who is gifted by the Holy Spirit to teach, then she will be allowed to teach. Because the pressing matter is the Salvation of this man’s soul. After all, this is is the very reason why Jesus Christ came in the first place. Or do I follow another Christ? Let no one allow legalism or reference to creation order ever make Salvation a secondary priority in any circumstance.
Paul has no entitlement to write new commands.
That’s a valid point Chris.
Paul is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Paul’s epistles are from Jesus. If you reject Paul’s writings (which come from God) you are rejecting Jesus’ teachings and commands for the church.
Paul is God’s Spokesman to the Church
1. Paul received direct revelation from the Lord.
Galatians 1
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2. Paul received special revelation about the church
Ephesians 3
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
3. Peter was the apostle to the Jews while Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.
Galatians 2:8
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity
2 Timothy 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
2 Timothy 4:17
Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
4. Paul exhorts us to follow him.
1 Corinthians 4:16
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Philippians 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Philippians 4:9
Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
1 Thessalonians 1:6
And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
1 Thessalonians 4:1
Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 Timothy 1:13
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
5. What do you do when a passage in a non-Pauline book seems to contradict what Paul has said?
2 Timothy 2:7
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
If you reject Paul’s writings you are just like the Pharisees who rejected Jesus. You have passed from Christianity and the church to religion.
Craig.
As I read the discussion here about women in the church, it is not about accepting or rejecting Paul’s writings. It is about how we might apply Paul’s writing.
Speaking for myself, I don’t doubt Paul’s inspiration.
In the list of verses that you quoted, Paul appears to be mainly concerned to state his authority to announce the gospel, not any authority to make rules or laws.
We could just as easily pick out verses such as ” “if you died with Christ, from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you submit yourselves to regulations ..” Paul, Col 2.
We might reflect on how the one thing that so often brought Jesus into conflict with the Pharisees ( and others ) was that Jesus was seen to be breaking the Sabbath rule, which the Pharisees were sure had been handed down by ” God’s spokesman ” Moses.
It seems from the gospel record that in this conflict Jesus was deliberately provocative. It happened several times. Jesus didn’t break the rule, He demonstrated how to apply the principle of God’s Sabbath in grace.
The Pharisees were so focused on rule keeping that they missed Jesus’ grace.
In any case the NT tells us that a number of the Pharisees became believers and followers of Jesus. Including the Pharisee, Saul of Tarsus.
That was the work of grace, not any devotion to the rules.
Agreed, it is how we understand and apply Paul’s writings. Of course the same could be said for most of the Bible. We’ve been part of numerous churches as we’ve moved from city to city, and found that their denominations frequently interpret/understand the same verses quite differently. Even those who say “in plain English it says….”, often come up with different meanings.
My wife and I grew up in a denomination that from its inception believed in the equality of men and women, including what they could do in church. There are numerous such denominations. (Google it.) They believe the Bible, but understand it differently on this issue.
I remember one wise old fellow many years ago who commented “Christians are a strange lot. They love to fight over their various interpretations of doctrines. This bunch sprinkles folks (referring to baptism), that bunch dips ’em and the third bunch nearly drowns ’em. The world would be a better place if they quit their arguing and spend their time loving and helping their neighbors.” To which I add a hearty “Amen.”
The first step in “interpreting” the Bible is to see what it says. “Even those who say in plain English it says…., and then come up with different meanings” usually aren’t looking at what it says. They have their minds made up and come up with their interpretations in spite of what the Bible says. The apostle Paul is one of the favorite targets of liberal theology because they don’t like what God has inspired Him to record for the church.
Like your mind is made up, you mean?
neville briggs says (September 20, 2016 at 12:02 am)
“And nowhere in the Bible are there, salaried clergy, clerical vestments, church tithing, guitar playing, church building funds, senior pastors, archbishops or Sunday schools.”
There is no prohibition in the Bible on salaried clergy, clerical vestments, guitar playing, church building funds, senior pastors, archbishops or Sunday schools. We don’t tithe in the church age, but giving is encouraged. None of this negates the Bible’s teaching that pastors and deacons are to men.
My reply seems to have landed in the wrong place, that was in response to your comment that there were no female pastors and deacons in the bible.
The point I am making Craig is that the church feels free to invent traditions when it suits them, whether these things accord with bible teaching or not. The fact that something is not in the bible has never stopped this trend.
If lack of biblical prohibition is accepted as permission then we can be relaxed about women’s role in the church because there is no bible teaching that pastors and deacons must not be women.
The only teaching I can read on what must be , is that those taking these roles must be assessed to be people of character. It is assumed that they will be men but that is not required by some strictly enforced rule.
Jesus said that the sign of being His disciples is that we love one another, not that we control one another with rigid rules and hierarchy.
I can show you that is was Paul’s opinion based on women’s role in society as well as his own skewed opinion of women. First God nor Jesus ever said woman cannot preach or should not speak. Let us not forget that while the disciples fled during the crucifixion, it was faithful women who stayed. But back to my original point, Women are to have a partnership in her marriage. Her place in society is strictly according to social constructs. Go back to Genesis, when Eve was speaking o the serpent. She did not once say, “let me go ask my husband”. Nor did Adam ever say, “why didn’t you ask me first”? Partnership, equal with different responsibilities. God uses who He wants, when He wants. Who is ANY of us to question who He calls to preach?
As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.
Isaiah 3:12
Not in vain, did the Lord say:
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8
Amanda Wait says
September 26, 2016 at 3:09 pm
Oh yes there is!
“Greet Andronicus and JUNIA, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are OF NOTE AMONG THE APOSTLES, who also were in Christ before me.”
~Romans 16:7 (Junia was a woman and an apostle)
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a DEACON in the church in Cenchrea. Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God’s people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially to me.
~Romans 16:1-2
So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. [Priscilla also taught Apollos!]
~Acts 18:26
“Of note among the apostles – Whether this intimates that they were noted apostles or only highly reputed by the apostles, is not absolutely clear…”
Carm website says: “Different sources see Junia as male and a female. But, if we look at the word strictly as being masculine or feminine, it appears that it is feminine.”
Craig says:
Romans 16:7 says Andronicus and Junia are of note among the apostles. In other words the apostles noted or notice them.
Romans 16:1 says “I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea”. She can’t be a deacon because Paul has already noted that deacons are men in 1 Timothy.
Acts 18:26 says nothing about Priscilla being an apostle, pastor, deacon or teacher in the church. Notice Aquilla and Priscilla, one on one, explained unto Apollos the way of God more perfectly
There’s no way around it. There are no female apostles, pastors, deacons, or teachers of men in the Bible. You have to twist scripture or take it out of context to come to that conclusion.
In my understanding of Jesus words, the the real issue of church roles is not that of male and female roles but the damaging division into so-called lay and clergy.
” you are not to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, The Messiah ” says Jesus to his followers in Matt 23. ” the greatest among you will be your servant ”
At the end of Matthew’s gospel we read that Jesus declared that ” all authority in heaven on earth has been given to me ”
If we accept that declaration its plain grammatical meaning then no one else can claim authority but Jesus and arguments over authority and who is in charge of whom in the church are meaningless.
In the gospel message, Jesus seemed to be more interested having citizens of the kingdom of heaven become like a little child than becoming authority figures.
Jesus’ instructions to the church are given primarily through the apostle Paul and His instruction that pastors are to be men is abundantly clear. Its so clear that a person would have to make a decision to ignore the plain teachings of scripture and go with their own preferences. All are equal in our position in Christ, but God in His wisdom has so directed that men are to lead the church. Nowhere does God endorse anyone abusing their position and privilege of leadership.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV It is indisputable that God prohibited all women from teaching – “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man”. 2nd Timothy 2:12 NIV. No sane person can argue with God.
The psalmist David argued with God. Was David a sane person.
But then David’s writing is part of the inspired scripture, arguments and all.
Perhaps we need to be thoughtful before making broad declarations that judge the disposition of those who struggle with questions.
… sane people can and do argue with God …. but that doesn’t change the truths of scripture …. women aren’t to teach or usurp authority over the man … pastors and deacons are to be male ….
If I remember it right, God said it’s not good for a man to be alone,(Gen.2:18) but Paul remained unmarried. If we are to completely follow the words commanded by Paul, as we believe it’s a revelation from God, then how credible is he knowing that he is not completely following the Word of God?
Anything that doesn’t go against the law of salvation and spiritual enlightenment shouldn’t be confused nor disturbed by the rules of local and physical church.
This is the practice of all the other local churches and differences of culture are not relevant to the issue, since the issue is based upon cultural not theological. In other words, the practice was to be unique to Corinth, it should not followed by all the other churches as well.
Provisional or permanent? Contingent or comprehensive? When it comes to interpreting Scriptures your answer will likely forever pigeon-hole you, pitching you into one camp or another. Increasingly the matter comes to the fore as the Scriptures become the sacred text upon which a person’s position may be used to maintain rank or power over another human being. Critics of this conclusion will quickly point out the aim is not always power and control. Easier said than demonstrated.
Jon Zens takes up the matter related to Paul and women in his book, What’s With Paul and Women: Unlocking the Cultural Background of 1 Timothy 2. Zens’ argument turns on the influence of the Cult of Artemis on the wider Ephesian culture and how that may have informed Paul’s instructions regarding women in the life of the local church there. Are Paul’s words provisional – for the particular context of Ephesus? Or, are Paul’s words comprehensive, for all time and all local churches?
In short, Zens believes Paul’s language indicates the instructions are intended to be provisional – for the local Christian community in Ephesus. Zen offers an accessible, even popular treatment of one possible way to understand an alternative to the more common, conservative approach to the chapter in particular and the question gender roles in particular.
Others have taken up the same material. In the series The Bible Speaks Today, John R. W. Stott refers to a particular study following the same general trajectory as a “tour de force” in his volume on 1 Timothy. But, Stott is unconvinced. He quotes J.I. Packer who contends gender roles remain a constant from Creation through Redemption into eternity. The great fear stems from what appears the normal “slippery slope” argument. That, if a person agrees a particular instruction is provisional, how then is it that all instructions are not provisional. The question begging to be answered then turns on other instructions, like men praying with lifted hands, that are certainly dismissed as contingent.
Zens draws attention to these very issues preferring his conclusion as consistent with an understanding of the cultural setting. He does not see the authority of Scripture questioned. The appendices offer supportive material as well as an engagement with Piper’s book on the subject of gender roles.
If the reader would like an introduction to the possible influences of the Cult of Artemis in Ephesus and how it may related to biblical interpretation, this would be a good place to start.
BB says
October 22, 2016 at 12:13 pm
So are you sayingredients God is not still speaking to people? Paul didn’t say Jesus said, he said “I”. You are absolutely right in saying “who God called” and that was the basis of my message. I am not going to judge someone who said they were called by God. Only one who knows is that person and God. I have made up my mind to listen and let the holy spirit teach me, not man.
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Craig says: The Pauline epistles are inspired of God. Paul is God’s chief spokesman to the church. Paul got his revelation from Jesus. Do you want to know Jesus’ instructions to the church? If not then close your Bible and close your mind. If you do want to know Jesus’ instructions to the church then look at what Paul says.
Craig since God’s Word is never changing I am going to leave on that note. We ALL have to answer to God in the end. EVERYONE knee must bow.
I had always had an issue with how i thought the bible saw women. It seemed as they were useless unless they had husbands and children, and that there was no other use for that. I always felt bad about that because though i would be fine with being a wife and mother, why couldn’t i also be a leader for god. God is my life. Just this last Sunday i preached for the first time, kind of a sermonette type of thing. As have three other young women in our church. And today i happened to find all of these fights saying god doesn’t want females to lead. But god made me the way i am and he allowed me to preach not just in front of my church, but three churches, and regardless of what may or may not be the hidden message of these verse against women leaders, i did what god wanted me to do and people learned about god. God’s goal is for us to save others souls, and if it happens through a girl or a boy, we are doing God’s work. I’m proud of what i did for god and a lot of people said they needed to hear what i had to say.
Of course when i saw that women weren’t supposed to preach, i got discouraged. on one hand i want to follow what the bible instructs me, but on the other hand god is allowing me to preach. And i prayed a lot about it, and god has given me a peace about it. I know god has great plans for my future and they may just include preaching, and i do what god wants for me, regardless of the hate it might get from people.
You have to follow what God leads you to do. I am definitely of the opinion that God is calling men and women. If he leads you to preach then preach. If he doesn’t want you to preach, guess what, He can shut you up, not MAN. God bless and keep you “the church” moving. God bless.
Go with what you think God wants for you. Many of us do not think the Bible prohibits you from preaching or teaching.
Nicole
You need to follow what the Bible says rather than man made man pleasing doctrines. Sometimes it can be a struggle following the truths of scripture, but ultimately you will find true peace and freedom.
Craig,
I’m curious as to what you would think regarding a woman who claims to have been taken in to the glory where she heard God speak, saying, “They do not understand; the only important thing is that they love one another.” This woman says that whilst in the glory but just prior to the words being spoken, she was shown a vision of many, many people all walking about, all dressed in monks habits with the cowls up, all intent on their own thoughts and not one taking a blind bit of notice of anyone else. She claims this vision was of the church. She also says that her immediate reaction to these words was to very enthusiastically say, “I’LL TELL THEM!” I’m curious as to whether you would receive her or dismiss her, either because she was a woman or because her claims are additional to scripture?
Craig,
Have you considered that at the time Paul wrote his letters, there was no bible? He instructed the reading of scripture but pretty much the only scripture available at the time was the Torah and the Septuagint. Or the Aramaic one. Also, it was the Emperor Constantine who, some 300+ years later ordered a select group of men to canonise various scriptures and epistles (letters) into one volume. And also, is it not so that Jesus himself is the Word of God?
An apostle is one who brings a message from God, so we can rightly conclude that Mary Magdalene was actually the first apostle, sent by Jesus Himself at the tomb, to tell His brethren.
A great many people hold to the saying, ‘sola scriptura’. However, as BB has already stated, it is of paramount importance that we rely upon the Holy Spirit for inspiration, not just scripture. To ‘dig your heals in’ and say, “I will only follow what Paul says!”, is to make yourself unteachable. You have alienated yourself from the grace of God because you have erected for yourself a system of belief.
Paul says that we all know in part. He also said, “If anyone thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing as he ought.” He also says that we are members of Christ, not a belief system. Be open to the possibility that you may have misinterpreted the meaning behind Paul saying he permits not a woman to teach. Allow yourself grace to move, to live and to make mistakes. None of us are perfect but it is Christ’s perfection that saves us, not our adherence to doctrine. The only important thing is that we know God and God is love. Jesus commandment to us was that we love one another.
Please don’t put Paul on a pedestal. He was just an ordinary man, filled with the Holy Ghost, the same as anyone else filled with Him. He made mistakes the same as anyone else. Wouldn’t surprise me if he wrote some too! I think it is so terribly sad that there are so many people out there who treat the bible as though it were God in book form. Far from it! These people say, “The inerrant word of God!” Sorry to rain on your bonfire but there’s a great big fat mistake in the very first chapter of Matthew. The final 14 generations? Well, it’s actually 13 because some burk wrote, “Joseph, the HUSBAND of Mary, instead of her father Joseph.
Anyway, I encourage you to lay aside your bible and all that you have put your trust in and open to the Lord instead. It seems to me from all your comments on here, that you are sorely bound in the chains of religion and are not at all walking in the Spirit. Remember, the same Paul who said he permits not a woman to teach etc., is the same Paul who said in Romans, “The one who has not the spirit of Christ, is none of His.” It’s about the atmosphere you produce IN your relationship with God; the love atmosphere. Actuallly, even THAT is an outcome of knowing Him! It’s about your relationship with Him. Not about being right.
I pray you’ll choose to be blessed.
I feel this debate is at a standstill and you guys can argue all nite on this one but there are women who were preachers healers miracle workers and had mighty ministrys because God was with them there is no doubt about that.They moved in the gifts of the supernatural.I am just saying this for those women who feel they have a calling on there lives to preach.Dont let others put you in a box God doesnt put us in boxs he helps us to become all we can be in Christ.
The first is mother etta she was an inspiration in her day even in her 90s preaching the gospel and healing people miraculously in a time when women werent supposed to preach she drew thousands to her meetings even John g lake commented on her ministry. http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/199901/086_woodsworth_etter.cfm
The next women i think is worthy of mentioning in ministry right now and God is blessing in a powerful way is heidi baker she has documented cases of people being raised from the dead deaf are healed and i think her ministry is just showing the love of Jesus to people.
Doesnt that say that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us how can we limit those verses.If God put a calling on mother ettas life to preach the gospel she just did it no matter how hard it must of been because in those days the revivalist were poisoned beaten threatened and yet she stood up to them that is fearlessness and courageous.One of the verses that inspire me is Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart.As craig mentioned dont listen to man but be obedient to God and follow him and he will make you fishers of men brentnz
Since the Scriptures are clear on this and are unchanging I will just post a previous comment:
Jesus’ instructions to the church are given primarily through the apostle Paul and His instruction that pastors are to be men is abundantly clear. Its so clear that a person would have to make a decision to ignore the plain teachings of scripture and go with their own preferences. All are equal in our position in Christ, but God in His wisdom has so directed that men are to lead the church. Nowhere does God endorse anyone abusing their position and privilege of leadership
I am going to repost. Are you saying that God is not still inspiring people? Just because it’s not written in the old and new testament don’t mean it’s not happening. Please we also hear there are missing books from the bible? If God inspired women to preach, should we start a new bible so that you can believe it? Or is faith based on things not seen? Let’s just agree to let God choose.
God has spoken on this subject and His word instructs that the woman is not to teach nor usurp authority over the man. I cannot agree with your view as it opposes God and His word.
Are you saying that God lost some books of the Bible?
No. I am saying man did. So I am now asking where are we putting the inspiration that God is imparting on man today? I am not asking that anyone agree with me, me like everyone who has chimed in are only offering THEIR opinion. We ALL know one thing in common, God has the last say.
God is not going to lead/guide/inspire any women to be a preacher because He’s not going to contradict His word.
I read this article by charisma magazine which i thought was well written which is pro Women preaching http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/16851-why-i-defend-women-preachers
This debate is an on going one John Piper who i respect as a bible preacher believes that scripture is clear women shouldnt have authority over men or teach in the church some go as far as saying women shouldnt preach in sunday school if the classes are mixed.Personally i think times are changing and i say that because i have a women manager she has authority over me and other men so if we follow the biblical example i shouldnt allow myself to be in that situation which is just crazy thinking. I am with an anglican church and they do allow women ministers and they preach.So if you are a women and God has put a calling on your life to preach then join a church that allows you to use that gift from what i understand exhortation prophesy and evangelism are topics that can be preached in any church by women and there no restrictions outside of church as in home group type situations.This is one of those situations that we may not agree on scripture but we still are one in Christ and to God be all the glory.brentnz
I think it is a grave mistake to adjust Scripture according to changing times. There doesn’t seem to be any prohibition against women teaching kids and certainly women can teach other women, but God isn’t going to put a calling on anyone or anything that directly contradicts the clear teaching of scripture.
Indeed Craig, in fact perhaps we should accept that God will not put a calling on highly paid preachers, clerical titles and controlling domineering “elders” because such things directly contradict the clear teaching of scripture.
God’s guidelines are given in Timothy and Titus … and they still don’t allow for a woman pastor.
Amen
Paul frequently offered his personal opinions. Absent was “thus saith the Lord” or anything similar. Many of us think what he had to say about women teaching and preaching was Paul’s opinion, addressed to contemporaries of Paul, and addressed a specific contemporary situation. Increasing numbers of churches and denominations are accepting this viewpoint.
Thank you. I agree. I said that in a previous statement.
Everything in Paul’s epistles are from God. Saying that some of what is in the Pauline epistles are just Paul’s opinions reduces the Bible to a buffet where you just pick and choose what you like. You end up with no authoritative truth where everyone does what is right in his own eyes.
Craig when i said changing times i was meaning women dont necesarily wear head coverings to church these days nor wear skirts to there ankles they should have long hair not short or shaven no jewellery nor make up.All these are rules in the bible that i guess your wife follows if you believe scripture to be true and i forgot must be submissive to her husband.That is the danger of putting the cart before the horse or as Jesus said that he made the sabbath for man not man for the sabbath.In Christ we have liberty he sets us free from the law. brentnz
The Bible doesn’t say anything about wearing skirts to ankles. It doesn’t prohibit jewelry. It’s just that the woman shouldn’t let her outer appearance overshadow inward character. As far as hair it doesn’t prescribe a particular length and if you look at the context 1 Corinthians the covering is the woman’s hair. Basically you’re bringing up a bunch of issues that have nothing to do with women pastors which the Bible clearly forbids.
Your covering is Jesus. While we are sticking with women can’t preach are we also following the ten commandments? Not. We are no longer under the old dispensation, but the new. Jesus paid the full price and ALL he wants in return is for us to love one another as we love Christ. Everything else will fall into place.
The command that women are not to teach or usurp authority over the man was given by God to the Apostle Paul for the church during the church age so I don’t understand your reference to the 10 commandments and the dispensation of the Law.
I have christian friends from other churchs and there women do these things and they do it because that is how they interpret the word.Its optional and not inforced by the church or by there husbands.They do it as an act of worship to the Lord.The point is how you interpret the word that was what i was getting at as we know the word is the inspired word of God to understand it we need the inspiration of the holy spirit otherwise the word is dead and brings no life.In the case of mother etta she was called to preach and God used her as an evengelist in her day her ministry grew she witnessed to thousands she healed the sick and saved the lost you can argue over a point but the proof is there that God uses women just as he uses men in ministry today. The whole concept of the word is that God wants all our hearts for him and him alone when we live for him he will use us to be his witnesses regardless of gender and he is able to do much more abundantly what we can think believe or imagine..brentnz
She wasn’t called by God to preach as God in His word told us women are not to teach or usurp authority over the man. It has nothing to do with how you or I interpret the passages, but what do they say.
Craig maybe the definition of teaching men under authority is limited to that particular area within the church.But that doesnt stop God from working outside those constraints.Mother Etta and no doubt other women felt compelled to preach the gospel such as women missionaries.Mother Etta preached the gospel and many were saved people were healed just as in the day of the disciples it is the same Jesus that saves and delivered from from sin and disease not the fact that it was a man who spoke behind the altar.Why do you find it hard to see that God can use women just like he uses men to witness for him.The call to witness for Christ is for everyone not just men and not just in a church situation.When we limit God to a narrow view it limits the effectiveness of the gospel.
Amen. God can use any WILL ING vessel who chose to let him use them. Since he gives us a choice he does not make us do his Will. Do understand that he has ALL power. I thank God that if we never agree on this situation, it has us discussing the Word.
That’s what’s its all about. Quit leaning on others (pastor, teacher, church, denomination …) views, beliefs and opinions all the time. Get in the Bible and learn the truth for yourself.
Thanks BB i agree i believe we can have disagreements over doctrine or teachings but unity in Christ
we are always brothers and sisters if we have put our faith in Jesus Christ.Just like family we may not agree but we are always family. brentnz
Richard says (June 5, 2016 at 11:41 pm)
There are many verses and example that women prophesy and teach.
A good example is: Acts 18:26
He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
So have Priscilla violate the 1 tim 2:11-14? Definitely yes and she is not condemned for it. Paul praises them too.
Craig says: No. Priscilla is not prophesying or teaching in the church. Priscilla and Aquila took Apollos aside privately and shared the way of God more accurately after which he taught publicly in the church.
What an important aspect to deal with.
Jesus came for the sick (all genders) and healed them. Jesus appointed (all genders) and said teach make disciples (as you do today, you preach the word to all genders and baptize all genders in the same water and make them all disciples. Why then are you questioning the authority of Jesus?
Jesus worked with all genders. God used all genders. Why then do you question the authority of God?
The gender problem is an earthly issue. After death the person who remains will be the SOUL. Why then waste so much time on worrying about where is the soul kept now on earth, than encouraging to soul to run the race with a good end so when judgment day comes the soul may be able to answer for what THE SOUL has been accomplished and failed.
The importance of looking at what was happening at the time Paul wrote these two, seemed to be crucial Scriptures, is important as it guides us not to get out of context but be vigilant and sensitive to what the Holy Spirit also reveals. (if not yet revealed please them seek Him.)
The natural person will answer for natural things, but the spiritual person will answer for spiritual things. God made us capable to handle both. This does not mean that we must discriminate against the two. But we are to be careful to treat them separate when we look at Scriptures.
Paul spoke to both persons (the natural and the spiritual). It is important then to look at Paul’s teaching in this regards and our understanding will mature.
We argue spiritual gifts in the natural and this does not make sense. Let the spiritual beings do their spiritual work whether they are still in the gender of woman or man.
As I hear God speaks to me (gender – I am a woman), I will continue to be faithful to Him and preach where He says I must preach and teach where He says I must preach, prophesy where He says I must prophesy, evangelise where He says I must evangelise. The title you decide to call me with is not my concern, but what God says I must do is my concern. I choose to obey God first. This is in the account of God not man, whom I will give the last report as to what I have done with what He entrusted me with. Lastly Yes I was ordained to preach and I am called Reverend/Pastor/Preacher/Evangelist. Oh yes I am not biased.
Shalom
Actually you’re the one questioning Jesus. Paul received his revelation direct from Jesus. Jesus’ doctrinal instructions to the church are through the Apostle Paul. If you want to know Jesus’ doctrinal truths for the church then you study what He instructed and inspired Paul to write. I certainly don’t doubt God has a purpose for your life, but according to scripture it does not involve teaching or usurping authority over men.
I think we need to be led by the HOLY SPIRIT and what he tells us is right and wrong. Craig can we agree that your opinion and how you interpret the scriptures are your opinion according to what you read and believe. So if you are entitled to an opinion, aren’t the rest of us entitled. None of us have a heaven or hell to put the other in. We should NOT be judging whether someone was called by God. That is between that person and God, wouldnt you agree? You seem like an intelligent person and i for one don’t want to judge anyone. We can agree that the scripture days ‘ touch not my anointed one do my profit no harm”.
The one good thing out of all of this is we get to discuss Jesus.
A couple of thoughts. What I have been stating is not my opinion. If we lay aside our opinions, biases, views, mindsets…etc and honestly and objectively look at what the Bible says and teaches then we can only conclude that women are not to be pastors, preachers, or teachers over men. The Holy Spirit will never lead a person to do something contrary to scripture. Just because someone says they are being led to do this or that doesn’t mean it’s the Holy Spirit who is leading them. That’s why we are to try the spirits to see if they are of God and the only way to try the spirits is to compare what they are leading a person to do with what the Bible says and teaches.
In the book of Ephesians chapter 5 we see the clear teaching about marriage and the church. I don’t need to quote the scripture I think most Christians know what area I am referring to. If we look at marriage between a husband and wife and look at the church. We see the answer to why women cannot hold the position or have the authority as a pastor. It’s really simple, Christ is the Head, Christ is the Husband, Christ is the Groom. The Church is the body, Church is the wife, Church is the Bride. Every Sunday when Christians go to church, it is the meeting of the Groom and the Bride. Marriage, Between Christ and the Church. We see this every time we meet on Sunday. The Pastor of that Church is representing Christ the Groom, now if a woman were to be the pastor of a congregation. What picture do those who attend church see?
A woman being a pastor of that church could not illustrate what Paul shared in Ephesians 5. That’s why a woman is not allowed to have that kind of authority in the Church. Sundays are not only to have fellowship, not only to hear the Word of God, but Sunday is a future picture of what we will be part of: the “Wedding” between Christ the groom and Christians the bride. Now that you have read this, when you attend church you will see that picture for the rest of your life. That’s only if the pastor of that church is a man, male. Do you see it?
for me; let me consider the teachings/selection of Christ too regarding women: Christ called 12 apostles (Mat 10:2-4), was a woman inclusive? the church appointed 7 deacons(Acts 6:5), was a woman inclusive? apostles conducted election to replace Judah(Acts 1:23-26), was a female candidate inclusive? let’s be mindful of the words of God. what is an implied meaning behind these calling/selections? Paul added to justify his point: “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” [1Tim 2:14]. if you are woman that is teaching in any church, it’s wrong. it doesn’t stop you to be holy, to contribute wisely… and at last to make heaven without teaching in the church.NB: the raw truth is bitter but accept the scriptures in good faith. let’s equally be mindful of the fact that; these are last days; the bible warned us regarding: false teachers/teachings/ doctrines (Mt 7:15, 1Jn 4:1 Mt 24:11, 24 Mk 13:22)
In this case, no woman should teach in Sunday School either as that is part of the church, or sing in the choir since that is not keeping silent. In fact no woman should sing in the congregation either. When one takes just one or two scriptures and not the whole Bible into consideration , it distorts the true meaning.
I believe that whatever position is available in the church to serve, people, whether man , woman or child should be allowed to share in the service. God’ word is precious and inspiring for the mind, soul and body therefore, we can be assured that all is inclusive. God gives gifts of varying degrees and capabilities and they all can included to edify him in a decent manner. If one hs a mouth; he or she can speak, sing, pray and present the word of God.
No offense intended but you started your statement with “I believe “. Either we follow scripture or not. God does bestow gifts of teaching and prophesying and administration ect. To both men and women alike but God places limitations and guidelines on how and when to use the gifts. Men in ministry are not to go beyond what God has instructed in His word, so likewise should women not go beyond the scriptural calling. Someone may say, i believe God has called me to preach, a women can still use her gift by witnessing in the highways and by ways going door to door living a holy life ect. One last thing, in submitting to the order of God we bring glory to God because it takes strength to submit. Does that mean men are better and smarter? No. It just mean that we honor God by honoring His way of doing things. Would a football team win any games if the running back tries to run the offence and throw the ball 30 yards down the field everytime he touches the ball? His role is different but yet important. Thats why it seems sometimes churches are losing because we are throwing the ball instead of running it.
Except the only one pulling the Bible out of context is you Joy.
In addition to what Abela said you also have 1 Timothy 3:2 (requirements of elders), Titus 2:3-6 (how women can teach women and “urge” men). Paul is being very clear here. You are not to teach men. I repeat, you-are-not-to-teach-men…
Now to the author…There are no female apostles in the Bible. Romans 16:7 is about Phoebe and there is controversy over whether she was a deacon or a servant (although there’s no controversy if you just read the Bible without pushing your feminist belief set on the Bible). I hold that she was a servant because Paul clearly lists the requirements for a deacon and it is a husband of one wife. Not a wife of one husband. Even the New Feminist Version (NIV for short) states there’s no controversy over 1 Timothy 3:12. It only shows that those who translated most of these money-making versions/devil’s choice didn’t read the Bible start to finish themselves and failed to take into account all sections and make all appropriate translations.
Author says,”For those who think that it is wrong for women to preach in church, I would ask them this: “Is it wrong for women to speak in Sunday school or home group Bible studies?””
This is absurd logic. One could ask it the opposite way. “Isn’t it wrong for women to speak in Sunday school or home group Bible studies?” Perhaps it is and we choose rebel against God. The problem with the statement is that it’s self-centered and not God-centered. I follow a simple faith, believe the Bible is simple and intended to be read to a child (because we’re children). If God says don’t do it…then for the love of God don’t do it!
Unfortunately, many men ( husbands and fathers) have not led by example or had good loving relationship with their wife and children but become abusive, lazy, unspiritual, and the children of those fathers begin to feel distrustful to men and could steer towards accepting women who have possibly been more obedient to God or seem more pure. It is not that it is right, but it happens. So, I am concerned when I see women in these leadership roles but I have identified part of the cause. I hope we will all pray for Godly men to be raised up to truly lead their families and thus be trusted to lead as Pastors.
This is the problem when we dont read scriptures as a whole. Does 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 2 or any other verse you want to throw about reflect the whole counsel of scriptures about a woman teaching a man?
in the Old testament, God and/or his angels spoke directly to women i.e. Samson’s mother. We read of Deborah, prophetess Huldah,The Wise Woman of Tekoa and the Wise Woman of Abel Beth Maacah, King Lemuel’s mother.
In the New Testament who functioned as church leaders and ministers: Philip’s daughters, Priscilla (with Aquila), Nympha, Phoebe, Junia (with Andronicus), Euodia and Syntyche.
Jesus first appeared to Mary after his Apostles had left.
Using one or two verses as proof text for excluding women from preaching or teaching is not logical.
And Joy Abrams is right, if you insist that “women are to keep silent in churches” is universal and the perfect will of God.
The next time a female utters a sound, makes announcement, sings or teaches sunday school, you’ve contravened the will of God, no exceptions.
Don’t allow your personal feelings make you make any excuses.
Jesus never established this hierarchies and institutions wrecking havoc today.
if you want to obey, obey to the last
I agree with you to an extent but what of women teaching in Sunday school and home fellowship? Is that not a gathering of God’s people as well? Is a woman suppose to lead and speak there? Thank u
agree it seems in our church in one month we have three women preaching, every month the pastors wife made a comment that some are saying the women are taking over then she laughed if the men cant then we will do it,
We are under Grace not the law anymore. God speak to all to go and spread the good news. Jesus die on the cross for all, go out the highways and byways and spread the good news.
The question is not can women preach but do men and women have different roles in the bible.
Is it biblical for women to ever lead, except Jezebel? Do we read of women supporting her household or opening it up to support others, of course.
Women thought-out old and new testament have alway ministered differently to men. Ester was a queen that never pushed her husband to act to defend her, she never pushed him but, via hospitality, faithfulness, feasts and winning his favoured delivered the jews from certain death. Miram lead Women in worship, she may of acted with a spiritual gifting of prophecy, I have no issue with that. However, when she as a woman challenge Male authority, she was made into a leper. Notice Aaron did not find the same judgment as a man, despite doing the same thing in numbers 12. Deborah was a Judge, but, never a leader. She supported a Jewish leader and helped him have the confidence to go to battle.
Women have a crucial role.
Women have the power to build or destroy their homes. Women bring life into the world. These roles are exclusive to women. Never does God give this to men, in fact men are instructed to flee home in certain circumstances. Its better to dwell in the wilderness/ roof top. Women have a great influence over the household.
Teaching God’s word is exclusive to men!
Women thought-out the Scripture as blessed as they open their ministry, open their homes to bless. I am not saying women can’t work, or shudnt have equal pay but, I want to be clear, women should be ladies of inner beauty, men focus on the outward actions.
I’m very sad to see organised churches attacked in favour of home groups and the use arguments that can’t stand upto biblical criticism. For example, widows indeed who lived a life of prayer and faithfulness should be supported by the Church if they had no body to help them financially. The same chapter also says elders that preach the word of God and doctrine should also be provided for. It compares faithful widows devoted to God (serving washing Saints feet, supporting households), with elders that Faithfully give themselves to doctrine and teaching God’s word. 1st Timothy 5.
Is paying the man that teaches God’s word and really the issue, don’t muzzle the ox that treads the corn, if somebody preaches the Gospel is it wrong to live of it? Was it unbiblical to support Paul, like the Church praised for it without being asked to help?
As for small home churches, they started in the temple and Synagogue, where women are strictly forbidden from even being present as men took turns each day to read the Scripture. Why were they not encouraged, because the ministry of the household was of such great importance. Its sad today, household ministry is viewed so cheaply by Christian that support women preaching. After being banned from preaching in Jesus name and finding people speaking bad of the way, they meet in houses. We do read in Acts 20 the early church met also in a school hall.
The Jewish faith centred around breaking bread and the kitchen. People did away from larger “church” gatherings. They meet in larger settings in the temple or synagogue but, these where male lead events. Females lead the home ministry.
This is not culture, Jesus broke all culture by allowing women to be disciples, by appearing first to women after his resurrection. This has to do with God making man and women different in role, but, equal in importance. Male or Female, jew or gentile, slave or free. These catergies exist, even to us saved Christians but, we all hold equal status in God’s eye regardless.
Can men give birth to children, do they have life grow inside of them. Can they do all a woman can, No.
Should a women do all that a man does, No. That’s not sexism, its a fact.
Can women preach, of course they can. Does that make then false teachers, of course not, there are many great female preachers. What they are doing is wrong, they focus on what needs to be done, rather than raising up men, encouraging. There is an attack on men, throughout scripture we constantly read the male children where killed. Today we don’t have to kill boys, we can simply never show them the difference between boys and girls.
Jesus personally appointing women as the first preachers of the gospel, the other women mentioned in the new testament that were preachers and church building founders, and the fact that there is no mention of any rank of preacher in the new testament contradict what you’ve wrote here.
Teaching children is different, boys at 13 become men in Jewish faith. We don’t preach to children in children’s churches or Sunday school. We play Christian games, tell them stories. We nurture children with bible stories. We evangelise to our children!!!
We don’t teach the sinners. We teach Saints. Don’t get me wrong women don’t need to be silent, they do however need to listen and not just constantly comment. They shouldn’t make huge discourse during the service, men do the teach.
The argument of what Paul or Timothy wrote is irrelevant. You only have to go back to the very first chapter of Genesis to answer the question of why women should not pastor or preach. Before sin even entered the picture, God put an order (or structure) in place for man and woman. So, whether it is a sin or not doesn’t even matter at all. The order and authority of the man in regards to the woman was established outside the realm of the sin nature. It was established before any families or churches even existed. That order consisted of the man being in authority and the woman being created to be his help mate. Man derives his authority from Almighty God and woman is subject to that authority. That is the end of the story. Furthermore, there is nowhere in the Bible from the beginning to end that tells me that God has changed that structure. He even transferred that structure to the family and to His church. And, when I say church, I am not referring to any building or denomination. I am referring to the body of believer’s that make up His church. Denominations serve only to confuse and divide. God never intended His church to be divided that way. But, that is an entirely different conversation. So, why should a woman not pastor or preach? It is because she is going against the very will of God and His established authority structure from the beginning of our existence, even before Eve partook of the forbidden fruit. In His ultimate wisdom, He created that order and it is not for us to question Him. When a woman steps into a teaching or preaching position, she is taking an authoritative position over those who are under her influence. Just as a teacher in a classroom takes and authority position over her students. When she takes that role of authority in a spiritual capacity, she is indeed turning upside down the very order God put in place back in Genesis. There are roles for which God uses women that do not usurp that authority, such as prophesy. When prophesying, one is simply being used by the Holy Spirit to deliver a message in an unauthoritative capacity. So, the argument of prophesy isn’t really valid when arguing about authority. Also, witnessing it is a completely unauthoritative role in regards to God’s authority structure. Everyone who accepts God’s salvation through His son Jesus Christ is called and commissioned to witness. That is true for man, woman, boy or girl! That is what Mary and Martha did when they left the tomb. They did not preach, but only went to witness that Jesus had risen and was no longer in the tomb. Witnessing is one of the greatest things we can do as a Christian, even more powerful perhaps than preaching or pastoring. But it in no way undermines God’s authority structure. I am not asking for agreement. It matters not to God if you agree with Him or not. He is the ultimate authority and does not need your opinion on or approval of what He says or does. There is no greater, more perfect authority figure that Almighty God. He has the final say. This argument will probably never die until we get to Heaven and then it really will not matter anymore. But, until then, I challenge you to pray and meditate on God’s Word and pursue His will even above your own desires.
Thanks for your comments and God Almighty richly bless you.
You are ignorant of scripture. The only authority addressed in the creation in Genesis is that of all humanity to have dominion of all the other earthly creatures. No gender distinctions making husbands automatic leaders in relationships, because marriage is a partnership. There needs to be equal contribution from both spouses to benefit and please each other. That was the whole reason for the statement in the creation in Genesis, “it is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him”. The word translated as helper from the original hebrew text is ezer, meaning a necessary help to benefit someone. This word is used numerous times in the old testament to refer to God, and twice for allied armies who came to rescue Israelites from enemy forces. Wives are not husbands assistants, they are their rescue from being alone.
Any human being is a creation of God and any human being can teach/preach/proclaim the love of God. At times Jesus even chose women to preach. Mary Magdalene after his resurrection, for example.
My question would be to also define preaching vs. speaking or lecturing as it relates to biblical teaching. I don’t see a big difference considering that when one presents a verbal presentation there’s usually a “set” as in “introduction” and some type of development or explanation of what is to be presented that was introduced. So, it should not matter if a woman or man or a child does according to their various abilities, God ‘s goes out. As far as pastoring is concerned, there seems to be many females heading households, though it may be due to economical reasons, but it happens….whatever reason, women can be and should be included in leadership positions in whatever position needed s long as they can handle it in a spiritual manner.
You are imposing humanistic cultural reasoning to nullify scripture. Our western culture says women can and should be able to do everything that a man does. But the kingdom of God has its own laws and culture and as believers we must not conform to this world but be transformed by the renewal of our minds.
Those who see women as being inferior to men and/or are condemned by God for teaching/preaching, should consider carefully whether their approach is gracious.
Some may be living by the letter of the law. The Spirit is what matters.
Revisit GRACE.
Why if someone believes what the scripture says, they have to believe that women are inferior? Please explain. A woman who is faithful in Gods calling according to scriptural guidelines effective in the kingdom. I would not have an issue with women pulpit preachers and pastors if the scriptures encouraged it.
We hv to obey de words of God,woman should keep silence.
You are wrong and you are encouraging people to sin, a woman cannot preach before men.
Many of the authors points are not scriptual but attempts to weaken the weight of the scriptures by saying we must consider “context” but its really trying to change what was a definite command. Paul was intelligent enough to state what he meant plus he was guided by the Holy Ghost. We must consider that God built the body so that everyone will not be the same member but each member has value. The word of God is clear concerning the roles of men and women in ministry but we are still one body. And although the role of overseer of the local assembly is reserved for male gender, Christ is still the head of the church and He loves us all equally. There is nothing in the scriptures against a woman witnessing and winning souls and even discussing the scriptures with men i.e. Aquilla and Pracilla discussing and explaining scripture to Apollos but when it comes to the official gathering of believers for service when men are present only a man can teach and only he can pastor. Older women can mentor and teach the younger women and also children. All of this reasoning and trying to fit the bible with humanistic talk cannot change the word. Gods way is above our ways. And His thoughts are above our thoughts.
The truth is that the scriptures say that women should not teach men. Do we listen to that advice or do we completely ignore it and only accept what we want it to mean, not only from that passage but from all the other contentious passages in the scriptures.
Sin started when a woman listened to Satan’s preaching and she then preached that doctrine to her husband.
Since that day we all have inherited the disease.
If we read it as an error then we are in danger of adding to the word of God and where does that stop.
A previous comment spoke of Gay Marriage, am I against that? well whether I am or not is irrelevant, God is against that and that is the most important point here. God has inspired the holy scriptures, that’s why they are Holy as they are set apart from all other books that have ever been written, its not for us to go and change the meaning because it does not suit our lifestyle.
The “Old Man” in us will always try and distract us from Gods word, like it or not we have to fight him and let the Lord fully into our lives and accept his word, even the parts that are offensive to us.
In response to the statement “sin started the moment a woman listened to Satan’s preaching…” How about this interpretation instead – sin started the moment Adam left Eve’s side…In a perfect world Adam would never have left Eve’s side. Women would be loved and protected and provided for by their husbands, and never betrayed, not by adultery or pornography, nor gambling or drug addiction, or suicide (etc). Fathers would never desert their families. But it does happen, more frequently it seems. It happened the day Adam left Eve’s side. All these mighty women of the Old Testament and New Testament…were they fulfilling the roles of absent men? Or were they fulfilling the roles that God gave them? Perhaps you could argue a bit of both. But when they approached God for salvation, whether before the time of the cross (Ruth, Rahab) or after, did God turn them away? If God is omnipotent, couldn’t he have prevented certain less-desirable women to become part of Messiah’s genealogy? Couldn’t He himself have raised someone else to take the place of Deborah, Anna, Mary Magdalene? He chose not to. In my own experience, up until the time I met my husband, the only men in my life were drunkards, sexual molesters and extremely violent persons. God called me to be a Christian at the age of 8. I had no-one but the Bible, the Holy Spirit, and a woman who I corresponded with through Scripture Union who taught me. Where would I be today but for her voice of encouragement, her instruction, her teaching and no doubt her prayers? God chose her. Today more than ever men are missing from the battlefront. If God calls a woman, who is man that will stand against God and argue with Him?
This is the fundamental principle here, I believe.
I have read through many of these comments. I debated on whether or not to share my thoughts because some posters are very critical and condemning. I am not a bible scholar. I read my bible, research various scriptures that I desire knowledge about, but first and foremost, I ask the Holy Spirit to open my spiritual eyes to see truth. Not tradition. Not what was passed on to me through my mother or my grandmother, but God’s truth. I believe that we are to study the scriptures and have knowledge; not just head knowledge but heart knowledge. I believe that when I understand truth, my spirit bears witness with God’s spirit.
If we know Christ as our savior, we are one body, the body and bride of Christ. Quarreling and bickering over this issue and that issue is not biblical. When we ask questions in the spirit of desiring to learn or grow in our knowledge of God to become mature Christians, I fully believe this pleases the Lord. As I read these comments, I asked myself, “What is the goal? What is God wanting us to do on this earth?” God came to earth in human form and he loved… he healed… he corrected… he convicted, but never condemned… and he spoke about the Kingdom of God… And he instructed others to go and make disciples, to testify of him and teach others about the Kingdom of God. Why? So that those who would listen would receive Christ, follow him, and be united with Him in heaven. Our salvation was bought at Calvary. Our freedom to overcome sin was paid with such a great price. And in the end, every one of us want to hear, “Well done, my good and faithful servant.” I cannot fathom that a woman Pastor would stand before Almighty God and be condemned to hell for pastoring a flock, for leading others to his saving grace, for helping to bring healing to someone’s life, etc…. I personally know several women pastors, two of which are related to me. I know each of them on a personal level. Each of these women I can 100% say are completely devoted to Christ and His mission. They are spirit-led Christians. They take their calling very seriously. They love others in a way that exemplifies Christ. I have seen God use them in wonderful ways to minister to others in their churches. Who am I to question their calling? Who am I to say that God did not commission them to this work in these last days that we are living? I will pray for them and pray that God will continue to use them for they are doing something that most people do not desire.
Instead of arguing over this issue (and others), why can we not be respectful of another’s beliefs and live out what we feel God is calling us to? There is no benefit to quarreling over scripture. If you are against women pastors, then don’t attend a church with a woman pastor. Live by your own convictions and let others do the same. One day, all will be revealed.
Thank you for allowing me to share.
Your words are truly full of what God wants us to know. I will admit that it not only touched my spirit, but it touched my soul. NO ONE can dispute this unless they just like to argue. I want to say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. And may God continue to keep and bless you.
If we go back to Genesis, men and women were made differently but were two equal parts of the family God created. Post fall, Woman was made subject to man in the family relationship, however man took that and effectively removed women’s rights and that mostly stayed in place until quite recently.
In terms of teaching in a synagogue sense (which would be today’s sermon as well as Children’s ministries, mid week Bible studies, baptism lessons and so on) there is absolutely no reason to think that a women is not permitted to do this. I would rather rather learn from a Deborah than a Saul (as in king).
I read some of the comments around women teaching men or asking questions of people other than their husband and it just seems to be rather Draconian in terms of approach and makes no allowance that women today have had access to the same education that men have and the same literature is available to them.
What folk who hold to the view that “women should not speak” (in whatever guise they manifest it in) are really saying is that a woman’s brain was not designed by God to expound the scriptures to the general population and could only do so to other women or children. That thinking would essentially say that Joyce Meyer, Priscilla Shearer, Ellen White, Lisa Beverely, Sheila Walsh and so many other women who have taken God’s Word around the globe were heretical in their teaching. That is clearly crazy as not only do these women carry the awesome message and love of Jesus to the people, they do so and reach folk that the average man wouldn’t be able to reach as women approach situations differently, again by His design.
In Heaven, we can ask Paul exactly what he meant and what the context was (and there is much speculation) but let’s not get bogged down in almost time wasting discussions as to the ability and validity of the messenger and focus on the message of God. For sure this will require the gift of discernment, but that gift is not gender specific!
Well stated, Zen. I like your reasoning. When stated this way, it becomes obvious how demeaning it is to say that women cannot teach other Christians.
The Lord himself appointed 12 men for his ministry. Was there no place for women?
Fifi, many think that even within the “12” there were even questions on who was actually a part of Jesus’ group. Many believe that Mary Magdalene was the first apostle. The term Apostle had two main criteria: 1. Had to have been a witness in seeing Christ’s resurrected form, and 2. had to have been there from the beginning…accompanied Jesus from His baptism.
When we see this, we can understand that Paul then would not have been considered an Apostle, and there was even some power issues within the first groups of teachers. With knowing this, we consider him one correct? Therefore why does the fact that the “original 12” were men mean that women are excluded? Paul himself refers to Junia as “outstanding among the apostles” and describes her as “my fellow compatriot” in Rom 16:7.
We have proof texted and made a theological issues over a very small group of verses, when we should be looking to the Scriptures as a whole. Jesus was counter cultural and broke the barriers of the day, that included having women help in teaching.
I really enjoyed reading everyone’s responses… it has made me dive deeper, seek His face, and ask the Holy Spirit for answers.
Jesus chose 1w men for his ministry. Were there not women at that time that a single woman was not included??
1. And all were martyred, except, presumably, John. Perhaps Jesus, in his chivalry, didn’t want the fairer sex to be among the first in his name to die brutal deaths.
2. There were many women who had significant roles enhancing the Kingdom throughout the Bible.
in Galatians 1;8
“But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!”
2 Thessalonian 2:15
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold on to the traditions that we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.”
Conclusion
Matthew 7:23
” Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Mark 7:7
“Jesus answered them, “Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. 7They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’ 8You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.”
GOD Bless @_@
Look at you liberal “Christians”, twisting yourselves into knots because you hold an opinion that contradicts the plain reading of Holy Scripture… Repent.
Thank you!
Thank you Jeremy for your article. I find that it is okay for a woman to reference scripture during a meeting about church activities among church leaders (men and women$ but not as a speaker to the body of believers.
Well as for me i see no reasonable reason why women should not preach in the church because we are all serving GOD Not man because if a woman is nt allow to speak or teach in the church it therefore means the church is not organised
Thank You!! I am in a church that doesn’t even allow women to lead in prayer. I stand there with my eyes open in protest. I am a musician and play piano/organ for my church. I also sing (ohh pardon me). I preached up at an Indian Convention in Western Canada that was comprised of mostly men. I am sick and tired of being looked at as the first participant in sin. If I get sick enough about it I could become a man instead, but I wouldn’t want to be one of them either. I was told “well since no man would go it’s OK”. Hogwash.!!!!!
1 Timothy 2:11 – Paul is addressing one woman here (he uses the singular form – “woman”) in a personal letter to Timothy. Since Paul is providing answers, Timothy must have been asking questions. This isn’t the first correspondence between the two men. In the verse, Paul doesn’t say “women can’t be pastors.” He says, “A woman should be quiet and submissive. I do not permit a woman to assume authority over the men.” It’s all singular – one woman. Submissive means submissive to Christ as well as to sound authority (this applies to everyone, not just one woman). It seems more like Timothy reported that a woman has been wrongly undermining one or more of the men on the council, and Paul is telling him how to handle it. Paul is actually graceful about it, as he often applies the same word – submission – to himself throughout his letters regarding his relationship with Christ. In no way does this translate into “women can’t be pastors.” FWIW, in 3:11, Paul says “women are to be worthy of respect” so he’s not sexist, either.
1 Corinthians 14:34 – Corinth was sin city, and the church was suffering internal fractures and moral decline. In this letter, Paul rebukes the men (several times) as well as the women (once): “the women should be silent and not allowed to speak, but be submissive.” Silent meaning meditative, and submissive meaning submissive to Christ in worship. He says that if the women have questions, save them for discussion at home later with their husbands. Again, he’s addressing a specific and reoccurring problem – that of chatter and distractions during worship. Clearly it’s gotten to the point where Paul puts his foot down and basically says “tell these chatty women to simply be quiet and focus on worshiping Jesus.” Remember the kind of people who would have been in this congregation – they weren’t saints. But nowhere does Paul say “women can’t be pastors.” Never. Not once. There are, however, several verses scattered throughout his letters where he refers to women in places of leadership positions, including the apostleship.
At first glance these verses would appear controversial, but with a bit of insight, some studying, and a few reasonable, logical deductions, it’s pretty clear that Paul didn’t intend to keep women out of the ministry. It would, ironically, appear that a lot of men with internet access would like to misuse scripture in order to try and keep women out of the ministry.
I have read your article I need to read more
My husband and I once belonged to a church who had sent a large group on a mission trip. Since the group was large, they divided it into two teams. One was led by a woman and one by a man. When they returned, the pastor announced that both of them would report on the experiences of their team. He said that the man would “preach about it” at the next Sunday morning service, and the woman would “give a talk” during the evening service. Hmmmm?
Dear Jeremy Myers,
I would agree with everything you say except for the fact that Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit said “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” ( 1 Timothy 2:12-14). I have talked with people who say that Paul was speaking to a certain culture in a certain time, and so therefore, what he says is not applicable in our time today. But if we believe that, then we are actually saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, who are One, made a mistake in telling Paul what to write, and if we are born again Christians then we automatically know that that kind of reasoning is false and dangerous! God knew what He was doing when He called Paul and supernaturally revealed to him what he wanted him to know and write (Galatians 1:11-12). There is a pattern in the Bible where God called men only to be priests and prophets (Malachi 2:1-7). The women in the Old Testament who had the gift of prophecy like Miriam, Huldah, or Deborah had a spiritual gift, but not a ministerial gift like Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher, or Evangelist. All Saints can have a spiritual gift (1 Cor. 12-14) but not all Saints can have a ministerial gift (Ephesians 4:11-15). Miriam did not like the fact that her brother Moses had a ministerial gift and she murmured and complained about it, so God punished her with leprosy. Deborah had discernment but it was Barak who actually went to battle, and because Barak did not want to go at first, God said He would deliver the enemy into the hand of a woman named Jael, not Deborah (Judges 4). Huldah prophesied comfort and edification but she was still in subjection to her husband. Homer Kent in his Commentary of 1 Timothy says, “nowhere in the New Testament is a woman presented as a Teacher in the church. The case of Priscilla is no exception, for she (like Huldah) was with her husband in the home and both of them instructed Apollos (Acts 18:26). Women can and should teach women and the young (2 Timothy 3:14; Titus 2:3).” A women can teach on the mission field as long as she is in subjection to the doctrinal authority of a male head of the mission. God is a God of order and Paul reminds Timothy of this order in his Epistle calling attention to what God said earlier in Genesis about women (Genesis 3:16). In Genesis 3:17 God rebuked Adam for listening to his wife and not asserting His God given role. Abraham also got into trouble by listening to his wife and the world today is still paying for it. In Galatians 3:28 Paul is saying that the Jews do not have the upper hand anymore when it comes to salvation because salvation is for everyone regardless of them being Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Keyword is Daughters.
Prophesy and preaching…telling what is going to happen vs teaching Gods word…cleaning fish vs catching fish. But hey let’s stretch Gods word some more. Make it fit us and not us to God.
Well I believe the same way u do the Lord can use who he wants to use he is God our Lord Jesus Christ because if he used a female donkey to speak to a male prophet he can use which ever female he wants I think its time for all this people and men’s to get off their horses and start preaching more of the truth which is salvation through Jesus Christ and the consequences of sin instead of judging who can God use or not the world its getting lost while all this pastors and people so called Christians or just taking what they like and benefits them from the word of God they should be out their bringing the lost sheep’s like a good shepherd who left the ninety nine and went to seek for the one that was lost thats what u call a good shepherd just like our heavenly father is. So u pray for me sister so the Lord can open doors for me to go teach,preach and take the good news to this lost world.
The way I see it by what you’re saying about women leading Bible studies is: do we call our female Bible study leader Pastor? No we don’t she would be a teacher of the gospel (not a pastor) as we are all called to be. Also I can see women in ministry positions like children’s ministry or women’s ministry but that is different than being a pastor. I’m a female and I am put off by women in the pulpit. To me if you don’t take what the Bible says seriously then why read it or try to live by it.
God bless you for this excellent write-up. I have read many articles and marvel at the way some chauvinists keep proving up these ‘ideals of the woman cannot’ and the eloquent and elaborate and self-righteous way they do it, and since I don’t have the dexterity to do otherwise, I just pass, eventhough I feel sad. I have always known that while I have my gifts and function in other areas, we’re gonna need skillful people to defend truth. I believe you’re one of such. Thanks for bringing out a simple truth we often neglect, ‘the church is not the building, but the people’. If a woman can speak, teach and lead any number of Christians any,then she can do that on a larger scale which we erroneously call church. Thanks for this. I also want to add that in studying the scripture, we must understand context and the spirit behind what is being said. In the time Paul wrote those verses reffered to in the article, the society generally restricted women, now this new following was growing, Paul needed to maintain order as they forged ahead in this new way of life, the spirit behind those texts was order not restriction. We can also examine it in the spirit of Christ, in whom there is neither male nor female. I also read an article that said Jesus excluded women from leadership by not calling any woman to be a disciple, my answer is: since he didn’t call any gentile to be his disciple, no one who isn’t a Jewish should be an apostle or pastor as well. Bottom line of this discussion, God will use any vessel- male or female who has made him or herself ready. May God keep our eyes steadily on him in Jesus name, amen.
It is wrong to create a doctrine based on a couple of sentences that most people dont study. We are told to study scripture. Gods word is what He said. God is not always Speaking in the Bible. In the book of Job his 3 friends didn’t know the truth and what they said was not true as God says himself near the end of Job. But what these men said in error is still part of ” God’s word ” teaching that what these men said is truth because its contained in God’s word is a lie . We must STUDY to show ourselves approved. Everything in the Bible is relevant . Deborah was Judge and military leader over Israel . All the people in Israel , men included , submitted to her authority . She even led them into battle . Was she submissive ? Was she permitted to speak ? God will not violate His law . So something is lacking in translation or interpretation . He will never contradict Himself . Paul said “he” would not allow a woman to have authority over a man . God placed Deborah in authority over the whole nation . Paul didn’t mention God in this verse . If paul appears to contradict something God says or does , I Go with God every time . Inspired our filled with the Holy Spirit we are still not perfect . Paul words in the Bible are not equal to God speaking directly . Cant be . He still had this sin nature and was not and never will be on equal footing with God in any way .
pauls words were all inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT (ALSO GOD) so we take them exactly as they are we dont change the bible .
either you believe every word or not
I think this is very discriminatory.
i am a woman and i have a friend who is also a woman,,and we are having a house fellowship and praying by the grace of God we will have a building for much proper work of God,,i am so bless by your revelation,now i do believe that woman can also lead i will not have any hesitation to serve the LORD and i will share your wisdom to my friend who is also having question about this issue,,my God the maker of heaven and earth bless you more and poured you wisdom,knowledge,understanding,ane new revelation,,God bless you more,
I don’t think a woman should lead a church. The Bible is clear on this. The reason is that women can be deceived easily. It is the woman Eve that sinned first before God. My wife always asked me about God’s word and I’ll address it to in a loving. She is a leader at heart, but respects me because of my position in Christ. Men have been slowly giving up as spiritual leaders in the body of Christ, not sure why, women have been forced to take that role.
My husband and I have been married for fifty years. He was a deacon in a Baptist Church for fifteen years before I was appointed a deaconess. God revealed to me in a dream, that he wanted to use me at a higher level. At a formal occasion at which we were hosts, standing side by side, by the chairman’s table, an elderly man appeared from nowhere, handed me a sealed envelope and said; “l have a message for you”. When he saw I was’t going to read it immediately, he took it back, read its content aloud and gave it back to me. “I want to use you at a higher level.” 35yrs later, my church sent me to lead her daughter church. This wasGod’s decision not mine. He was invincible to my husband. I am now 79years old and still leading the Church. 07/08/2021
I think it is fine for women to teach younger women and children, it is even in the Bible. However, I also believe that if you fear God, I mean really really fear God, you would not try to twist his word to fit some agenda or your view. If you fear God and losing his relationship or you fear his wrath, you would err on the side of caution. So Paul says women should not teach in church. In ours women do not. Speaking and sharing thoughts is not really a woman teaching everyone. But go ahead, flex God’s word to fit your agenda. No reason for Paul to actually say what he means and you to really take it that way.
I don’t ‘fear’ God , He is my father He loves me.
Last thoughts…Facts vs feelings.
Fact- Gods word says nope.
Feelings- Women should be able to preach, it just doesn’t seem fair.
Fear the one who can destroy the soul or cater to the one who can make you feel good about yourself.
I had an interesting time with this issue. I was trying to share a funny experience that occured years ago but mentioned my Grandmother being an Evangelist and the whole toned toned changed. To me it was funny but then sad when I realized this person has just limited himself from God’s blessings.
Thanks for the input and God Bless.
It certainly has nothing to do with a woman’s intellect, giftedness, or abilities. Even though most modern women have bristled at these instructions from Paul, I believe the key to acceptance is to acknowledge that God our Father and Creator, ordained that the male was to be in the position of authority. I know we have heard these points thousands of times but:
Adam was made first.
He was given dominion over the earth.
Eve was formed as help meet companion, bearer of life.
Nothing happened until Adam ate of the forbidden fruit because God held him accountable.
The man is given to be the leader of the family.
The local church, whether it meets in a building, private home or in a park, the male pastor or senior pastor is the spiritual authority over the church.
Women are free to give testimonies inspiration, write, sing and participate in other ministries. A woman singing a solo is using her gift for worship, praise and inspiration. She is not exercising authority over anyone in the congregation.
At our church we have women who lead and teach Sunday School classes that include men, VBS and other Bible studies.
Of course, we women don’t like any limitations to be placed on us.
We have demanded this in the secular world, but all secular standards don’t apply to the Christian church.
Why is it that nobody who argues for women preachers ever mentions Paul’s reasoning from Genesis?
I have not really come to understand why some church denominations are quite particular about women using a head gear in church, while others are not. I know that the Bible instructs women in Corinthians to use a head covering while praying because of the angels. Could you please explain why a woman’s head needs a covering because of the angels and also why there different understandings about this topic in the church today. Thank you
I think we don’t change the established rule of scripture to fit culture or feminism.
so there are qualifications for elders do you in your method just swap the pronouns around?
so a woman cant be an elder this we know for sure . or do we change what it says for culture sake ?
If women were meant to preach or carry the gospel into the world, then pray tell, why didn’t JESUS pick at least one woman to be an apostle/DISCIPLE? Seems like if he would have there would be no argument.
Next, Matthew 26:20
When JESUS had the last supper why were no women INVITED?
Now, Matthew 28:16-20
When the great commission happened and JESUS said go make disciples of all nations, why did he only tell men and no women?
And finally,
Titus 1:6 tell us the requirements to be an elder ( the term meaning local elders, ministers of the gospel, and pastors
Whose duties are preaching, teaching, and administering the sacraments) that an elder must be, blameless and
FAITHFUL TO HIS WIFE. (Not her wife, nor her husband)
Paul was a disciple of Christ, so who better to tell the church
How to conduct ITSELF? People can change the words in the bible if they want or disregard those words if they choose
But GODS plan is his and his alone. To try to say the bible is wrong about what Paul laid out is the same as saying that
The rest of the bible is wrong and does not Need to be followed
And that is simply blasphemy.
The question is who are what is the church? We are the church and without the children of God there would be no church. The children of God are filled with the Holy Spirit and God does not live in the building where we worship. So we are the church and so anytime we have guest in our homes the church is present so if you discuss the Bible or read the Bible or pray this is ministering to everyone present. I believe what Paul is refering to is the men had more education and the women should not be disruptive in a church serves by questioning a man or trying to correct the men in a church service. I think that church unity is important here.
………………..Soooooo, because God has created you to be capable of giving birth you’re no good?
This is religion, not Christianity.
excellent delivery
I believe that Paul also said that he received this commandment from the Lord also because of the angels who are looking and learning about the body of Christ one thing I do know and that is in the church dispensation this matter is clear and clean cut GODS word would not be his if he didn’t mean what he said remember he is not a man that he should lie… Now after the church is Raptured things will remain just as they were back in the old Testament days Joel 2 looks to a time past this dispensation that we are in at this present time read and learn about the different dispensation of God ..A great book is called (The Devine Dispensations
Of GOD) written by Peter S Rickman may GOD illuminate your sight and knowledge of HIS truth much 💘
I am one of those that supports women preachers.
I won’t like to repeat what many have said but say one or two things.
Is there any record where Christ prohibited women from preaching? When Christ came to Earth in the old testament times, He faulted things that Moses did and said that God said so.
This was the major reason the Pharisees of old hated him, even unto death. By extension to date they don’t recond with Christ.
If we can establish that Christ did not say so, whoever, then say so, is personal to him for he is not speaking for Christ. Our allegiance is to Christ and He alone is our model no one else.
Many scholars have said since Christ rose in complete human form, so also we shall be. So if we arose in our present form either make or female, we can even go ahead to say we continue as husbands,wives and children. Does it make sense.
Our God Almighty is the final authority of what He wants us to be. I am of the opinion that the lack of single identity of Christ in our day to day living is a major problem to Christendom.
We can as well ask the woman to not study the scriptures and be dependant on what the man preacher says and do, because Apostle Paul said so.
There were instances he was honest enough to say, that certain statements credited to him were personal views and not Christ saying so.
It’s safe to follow Christ who is the author and finisher of our faith.
When Paul was addressing the Corinthians, in 14:34 concerning women speaking in the church, why did he tell them, “…as the law also says.” Why was Paul making reference to “the law” when the church was no longer under the law, but Grace. Jesus raised women to a new level they had never experienced before! He taught women, and spoke to women that he wasn’t permitted to speak to, so why did Paul seem to revert back to his “old ways” when speaking these things?
There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors. As a result, it is very important to not see this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women, and there are men who believe women can serve as pastors and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of biblical interpretation.
The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12). InIn the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13–14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to them, teaching them publicly, and exercising spiritual authority over them.
There are many objections to this view of women in pastoral ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11–14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, then the majority of Jesus’ disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching men (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, the pastor of the church in Ephesus). Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, and women were the authorities in that branch of paganism—therefore, the theory goes, Paul was only reacting against the female-led customs of the Ephesian idolaters, and the church needed to be different. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention the standard practice of Artemis worshipers as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11–12.
A third objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words for “woman” and “man” in 1 Timothy 2 could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of thewords is broader than that. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8–10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9–10)? Of course not. Verses 8–10 clearly refer to all men and women, not just husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a narrowing to husbands and wives in verses 11–14.
Yet another objection to this interpretation of women in pastoral ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. It is true that these women were chosen by God for special service to Him and that they stand as models of faith, courage, and, yes, leadership. However, the authority of women in the OldTestament is not relevant to the issue of pastors in the church. The New Testament Epistles present a new paradigm for God’s people—the church, the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves an authority structure unique to the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.
Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla’s name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more prominent in ministry than her husband. Did Priscilla and her husband teach the gospel of Jesus Christ to Apollos? Yes, in their home they “explained to him the way of God more adequately” (Acts 18:26). Does the Bible ever say that Priscilla pastored a church or taught publicly or became the spiritualleader of a congregation of saints? No. As far as we know, Priscilla was not involved in ministry activity in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11–14.
In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is called a “deacon” (or “servant”) in the church and is highly commended by Paul. But, as with Priscilla, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not for deacons (1 Timothy 3:1–13; Titus 1:6–9).
The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11–12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22–33) and in the church.
The fact that Eve was deceived is also given in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.
Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching,evangelism, and helping/serving. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22–23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18–20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to setthe example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.
Having a read of 1 Corinthians 4:16-17 it is clear Paul’s message was not limited to Ephesus….”16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me. 17 That is why I sent you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church.” We can’t deny the living word. Unfortunately, many are fervently trying to apply world-view principles against God’s Word. The Word of God remains alive and unchanged.
Personally for me I love listening to Joyce Meyers. She went through some horrific times in her young years and she incorporates that in her teaching. She presents Gods word in a fashion of this is real and get over ur past and look to what God is calling you to do. So many teachers dance around these subjects. So do I feel can women preach. We are all Gods children. We are here to spread His word. Whoever I can connect with and gain from their knowledge then I could care less what sex speaks. Ppl need to quit with the little stuff and focus what God is calling them to do
Indeed women can preach and be apart of the five fold ministry. Ephesians 4:11.
I agree with JD and those proceeding him. As a woman of God used in the Church and who God blessed with great Discernment, Prophecy, Teaching, Exhortation, Intercessary Prayer and Interpretations of the spirits, I can see a lenient spirit of compromise of the One Truth that is God’s Word, in order not to offend in the article. However, there is but One God, One Faith, One Truth, One Way. That being said, as a friend, disciple & servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, like Paul, I am compelled to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to minister God’s messsages, and woe to me if I don’t! But even so, I know full well that I do not have authority over my husband or any pastor of the flock. The Lord has made this clear to me concerning His desire, plan and pleasure for the sake of order, peace, abilities and His glory. Nonetheless, I am called and appointed with complete submission and gratitude in Christ Jesus by the working of the Holy Spirit, but I know and honor my position under God and do not try to overturn it.
So what is the purpose of the scripture if we don’t follow it god never changes his word is still the same
I want to obey the Bible so I want to go to a church that obeys the Bible too. I want to be taught the truth about the Bible. I don’t want to go to a church that picks and chooses what they want to obey. So that being said, the Bible clearly says that women can’t preach to men.
This is a subject far to vast to discuss on a message board, I’ll do what I can.
What you are referring to is old testament behavior.
Jesus came and struck down the Old testament.
He was so radical that all of the officials of his time wanted to kill him.
Jesus gave his life to FREE us from religion of the the old testament.
This is Gods gift to you – His daughter.
Religion no longer rules, Christianity rules.
Go and teach, speak what God puts in your heart.
Jesus also told us to ‘never forget your history’
meaning to go forward and enjoy what Jesus has blessed you with.
The NEW Testament and the freedom from the religion of the Old Testament.
Religion is dead, Christianity rules now.
No more of this nonsense, go teach!
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more [completely] perfectly (Act 18:26).
At this point, I have to have great admiration for Apollos. He is a man who is mighty in the scriptures. He is a man who is fervent in Spirit. He’s eloquent; he’s brilliant, and yet two of the people who were there listening to him understood more fully the things of which he spake than he did himself. For through Paul, they had come to know that Jesus was the Messiah, and the empowering of the Holy Spirit in their lives. And so, I admire Apollos that he was willing to listen to a couple of the congregation who understood more completely than did he the ways of the Lord. I also admire Aquila and Priscilla for taking this eloquent man and sharing the way of the Lord with him. Notice that it does say that Aquila and Priscilla, both of them, were used as instruments of God in explaining to Apollos the way of the Lord more completely. There are some who would try to exclude women from any place of teaching or instructing, but God obviously used Priscilla for that purpose and with this man Apollos.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1Cr 14:34).
Now, you remember we pointed out when we were in the eleventh chapter that Paul speaks of a woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled. When Paul is declaring here that a woman is not to speak but is to keep silence, he is not referring to women not praying in church, or not prophesying in church. Because he already has made allowances for that back in the eleventh chapter. Then what does he mean, “Let your women,” notice, your women, “keep silence in the church”?
And if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church (1Cr 14:35).
The early church followed the pattern of the Jewish synagogue. Men sat on one side. The women sat on the other side. Now we don’t follow the Jewish synagogue pattern anymore. We co-mingle. They did that because they felt that they might be distracted by women, so they kept them on one side separately and the men on the other so that they would not be distracted by them. Here, as you’re sitting together, if something is said you don’t quite understand you might say, “What does he mean by that?” Or you might write a note, What does that mean? There, because their husbands were on the other side, “Honey, what is he talking about?” Paul said, “Let the women keep silent, your women keep silent, your wife keep silent. If she wants to learn anything, if she has a problem, question, let her ask you when you get her home. It is a shame the way the women are calling out in church.” It isn’t prohibiting them from praying, from prophesying, from exercising the other gifts of the Spirit. It is prohibiting them from calling across the room to their husbands and asking for an explanation of what is being said, or what is going on. “And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak out in church that way.”
I am a woman and I am a pastor. God called me to a pulpit shepherd ministry. My husband takes care of the administrative side. I never make decisions without his counsel. And we shepherd together as in counseling, visitation, etc. I spent way too many years defending the calling that God placed on my life. So now if people have a problem with the fact that God calls women to pastor churches they can take it up with God. And I will use my time ministering to the hurting and the hopeless.
I think if God can use a woman to win souls, then he will. it should not matter what’s between your legs it should matter what’s in your heart and in your mind and what’s coming out of your mouth. God is no respecter of person even in his word it says if my people do not worship me I will cause these stones to rise up to worship me so therefore I believe that a woman preacher is just as important and as good as a man preacher/paster.
Praise the Lord!
I believe you are simply believe a woman can preach or teach. This belief is based on North
American version of
Christianity. The apostle Paul verify I Corinthians 15:34, when he says “…as saith the law.” In other words, he is validating this verse by saying “…as saith the law.” The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. None of the scriptures you mentioned is not showing any women speaking to a congregation. Acts 18:26 Aquila and Priscilla “expounded” mean they explained the way of God more accurately. She was not preaching. Also, it says her husband Aquila was explaining with his wife. There was no preaching, nor was she preaching. You quoted Acts 16:14. She was a convert. I don’t see your point here? Also, if you look at Romans 16:3 “Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus.” She was not called to preach or be a pastor. They were “helpers.” In Romans 16:1-2 it mentions Phoebe, “a servant of the church…” Many has mistaken it to say she was a deaconess. For verse 2 says, “…for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.” The word “succourer” means helped. She helped many in the church and Paul. In Acts 6:1-5, the 12 apostles told the church to “look ye out among you seven men…” Then in I Timothy 3:12 “Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife…” not the other way around. In Isaiah 3:12 “As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” No brother only in America with it’s perverted ways have changed the Word to fit this perverse, twisted lifestyle. We are not fit America’s ways, no America is fit God’s way. God bless you and help you in Jesus mighty name.🔥🙏😇
I am a woman and I know by scripture that women should never speak out in church. They may however teach other woman. If a Bible study is multi gender, than a woman should stay silent. If a Bible study is all for women than this is where she may speak out and teach. It is clear as day about this but others take it and make more out of it than what it really is. There should NEVER be any female pastors because the woman was first to be deceived into disobeying God.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1Cr 14:34).
Now, you remember we pointed out when we were in the eleventh chapter that Paul speaks of a woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled. When Paul is declaring here that a woman is not to speak but is to keep silence, he is not referring to women not praying in church, or not prophesying in church. Because he already has made allowances for that back in the eleventh chapter. Then what does he mean, “Let your women,” notice, your women, “keep silence in the church”?
And if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church (1Cr 14:35).
The early church followed the pattern of the Jewish synagogue. Men sat on one side. The women sat on the other side. Now we don’t follow the Jewish synagogue pattern anymore. We co-mingle. They did that because they felt that they might be distracted by women, so they kept them on one side separately and the men on the other so that they would not be distracted by them. Here, as you’re sitting together, if something is said you don’t quite understand you might say, “What does he mean by that?” Or you might write a note, What does that mean? There, because their husbands were on the other side, “Honey, what is he talking about?” Paul said, “Let the women keep silent, your women keep silent, your wife keep silent. If she wants to learn anything, if she has a problem, question, let her ask you when you get her home. It is a shame the way the women are calling out in church.” It isn’t prohibiting them from praying, from prophesying, from exercising the other gifts of the Spirit. It is prohibiting them from calling across the room to their husbands and asking for an explanation of what is being said, or what is going on. “And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak out in church that way.”
In Mathew 18:18-20, Jesus talks about agreements being made on earth in His name to bind even in Heaven, note the key is “in his name” meaning such agreements should not bring to detriment the salvation plan of God for humanity. So what if a group of believers meet and agree that women can teach and preach as men do in the churches since they will not be speaking from without but within the authority of the ministry they bear, i am referring to women who bears an ordained ministry unlike the women at the congregation of Ephesus who had none. OR does 1 Timothy 2:11-12 mean to say women can not hold a spiritual ministry because they were created before the man?, i am compelled to ask, Does God not receive any convent that turns to him by preaching of a woman?, is a woman preaching the word of God actually a sin to God? because of the creation order..
Did Jesus(being the fulfilment of the law and the prophets) out rightly forbid the use of women in ministry despite Himself naming one among his 12?
How does God regard humans, by gender spirit beings?, i ask because Paul himself makes his case to us when it comes to the salvation of man, it does not matter whether Jew or gentile, male or female-here it’s gender insensitive (Galatians 3:28), but when it comes to roles in the church, the message turns around it becomes an issue(1 timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:35)…i am made to wonder, what is to be priority to God, our physical gender or the salvation that is sought????
If we can answer these questions objectively, we can start to realise the full context of the work of God.
my father also pointed out the fact that when Jesus was raised from the dead, He sent Mary to tell the people about it. She was a messenger for Him which is also the same as a preacher or teacher.
Paul’s (as in the ‘I do not’) opinion and reasoning are not necessarily the will of God. It should be distinguished that the word and opinion of a man and the word directly from God are two different things.
I appreciate this very much. Thank you for sharing. I am in ferverent prayer and running after what God has for me! I will go and do whatever He requires. Stay blessed
it is plain and clear the bible is not complicated, people want to turn the word around for the purpose and benefit.lets not forget why Adam fell,and why god sent his son not a daughter. so to me it is plain and simple,but people want to please the masses for there tithes and offerings.
I believe women can teach, but should not hold the title/role of Pastor (as in the leader of the Church) – which I feel, is reserved for men.
Thank you!!!! These are my thoughts exactly. People can spin it anyway they want and men of course want to be in charge. Jesus did not say women have to be quiet in church. Paul said it. And that you brought up in your article, Paul also said that women should cover their heads. Women don’t do that in most places either. Notion of a woman not speaking in church is a completely misogynistic view.
Thank you for your faithfulness to God and giving us a clearer understanding on a much debated and argued subject.
May we all pray for one another and live in harmony as Christ intended us to do.
I enjoyed the article and had a good chuckle over some of the religious comments. The creative interpretations to keep women silent are a hoot. It would be interesting to visit all their churches to make sure they are enforcing ALL of Paul’s instructions – women completely silent – no singing, no Scripture reading, no “passing the peace”, no greeting visitors, not a peep in church. And of course no costly apparel, fancy hair, and head coverings as required. And for the men, making sure they are praying constantly for all in authority? Are they greeting each other with a Holy Kiss and raising their Holy Hands in praise? Are they drinking a little wine for their stomach? Discernment is a gift, and we should use it often.
Your reasoning about what the Church truly is in this dispensation is solid. I typically use Body of Christ, as it eliminates some of the confusion religion has created with the use of “church”. The teaching of Jesus, and especially Paul’s Revelation, makes it clear the intent was not to create massive denominations. Since most of their harshest criticism was against religion and ceremonialism, why would they recreate it? And its unnecessary with Jesus as the HEAD, and Believers as the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
I could write for some time on this topic, but I will try to keep it short. The Constitution is the Law of the Land. Yet any city or county could pass a law that restricts gun ownership, or prevents assembling or free speech. They would likely be struck down, because they would be REPUGNANT to the Bill of Rights. There are verses in the Bible like that (if not rightly divided), and more importantly, there are examples that demonstrates the Will of the Father – which is what Jesus did – sometimes in opposition to Jewish religious customs/traditions. When we come across controversial verses, we should dig much deeper. In fact, a spiritually mature person should note the Holy Spirit will often trigger something inside to let you know that something is amiss. And as I matured in the Lord, each time I read 1 Tim 2:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 14, I experienced that discomfort.
For me, the verse that put me on the right path was Galatians 3.
26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.
27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham’s Seed], then you are Abraham’s offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:26-29 AMP
That should settle all the nonsense about women. In the Body, there is NO difference. Add to this the teaching on the Body of Christ, the Head, Jesus, and God’s placement of people where it pleases HIM, and any male/female debate should end. Believers are NEW CREATIONS, Made Alive in Christ, seated in Heavenly Places, Complete In Christ, recreated in Christ Jesus that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand). Believers are set free from all bondage, especially the small-minded religious bondage and bigotry of the past! (John 8:31-32, 1 Corinthians 12, Galatians 5:1, Ephesians 2, Colossians 2 & 3)
All that matters now is where God places you in the Body. Paul wrote of himself, PAUL, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God. (Romans 1:1) He KNEW God’s plan for his life. How many male pastors/evangelists/priests/bishops/cardinals/popes can HONESTLY claim that? God has shoe salesmen trying to be pastors, and people in prison who were called to the ministry! Why is it so shocking that women, who are EQUAL in the Body in God’s eyes, would be called into the ministry? This is not feminist argument, but God’s argument. How many more people could be reached with the Gospel if we could double the number of folks in ministry? This is the key for both men and women – its God’s choice, not man, religion, or some seminary. God has a plan and purpose for everyone.
Consider this incident during the ministry of Jesus. Consider how this applies to the male/female debate.
38 John said to Him, Teacher, we saw a man who does not follow along with us driving out demons in Your name, and we forbade him to do it, because he is not one of our band [of Your disciples].
39 But Jesus said, Do not restrain or hinder or forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in My name will soon afterward be able to speak evil of Me.
40 For he who is not against us is for us. [Num. 11:27-29.]
Mark 9:38-40 AMP
Does Jesus sound like someone who would get offended or threatened by a woman preaching in a pulpit? I mean seriously. He would be thrilled by anyone preaching the Word with love and passion – see the interaction with the Samaritan woman (John 4). I wonder sometimes when I get in discussions about this topic if folks REALLY KNOW Jesus, LOVE HIMSELF? God is not sitting in Heaven waiting to play Whac-A-Mole with His children if they “miss it”. He LOVES Believers and wants the very best for all, including for all to be saved. And he DOES NOT play favorites. That’s GOOD NEWS!
With those passages in your spirit, renew your mind with what they say, and then examine the prohibition verses. Which takes a precedence, or if you like, is the Law of the Land? Because right now there is a HUGE contradiction. If there is no male or female in the Body, there cannot be a limitation based on gender. So there must be something else happening with Timothy. I’ll share some clues, as people need to receive the Revelation of Scripture individually for the greatest impact. This was a PERSONAL letter to Timothy, not the church at Ephesus. Is Paul giving his opinion/suggestions, or a command from God? Was this universal, or concerning a specific situation or person? And realize the context, the church was under attack by Judaizers, pagans, and even pressure and threats from Rome. And a final clue to consider, Priscilla and Aquilla sailed with Paul to Ephesus. It was there they instructed Apollos on the Way. (Acts 18) So a woman who traveled with Paul, instructed a man, a leader in the church, in Ephesus no less, and then Paul writes Timothy to shut those gals up? Does that not seem a wee bit strange?
And the other big one 1 Corinthians. This one is SO easy, I wonder how so many folks missed it. Because of what I was taught, I did for many years. Paul was answering a letter sent by the Corinthian church, who were under attack by Judaizer converts. Sometimes Paul would reference their question, other times he would quote it. Start in Chapter 7 and you will see the pattern develop.
Now regarding the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to abstain from sexual relations. – 1 Corinthians 7:1 NLT
Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that “we all have knowledge” about this issue. – 1 Corinthians 8:1 NLT
Even if others think I am not an apostle, I certainly am to you. You yourselves are proof that I am the Lord’s apostle. 3 This is my answer to those who question my authority. – 1 Corinthians 9:2–3 NLT
23 You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial. 24 Don’t be concerned for your own good but for the good of others. – 1 Corinthians 10:23–24 NLT
Now, dear brothers and sisters, regarding your question about the special abilities the Spirit gives us. 1 Corinthians 12:1 NLT
12 And the same is true for you. Since you are so eager to have the special abilities the Spirit gives, seek those that will strengthen the whole church. – 1 Corinthians 14:12 NLT
34 Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. 35 If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings. – 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 NLT
Take a look at the notorious Ch 14, Verse 34 & 35. Paul had JUST finished talking about spiritual gifts and love. The former topic mentioned both women and men, and then Paul abruptly says, “Women, shut up!”? – Please, let the elevator reach the top floor. Look at the appeal to the Law. Who knows the Law better than Paul, who studied under Gamaliel, then the Lord in Arabia? There was NO LAW that silenced women. (1 Cor. 11:5, 13; Acts 2:16–21; 21:9; Joel 2:28–32) And then note the radical change in verse 36 – Its a REBUKE. Is Paul rebuking himself, or the folks who suggested silencing women in v 34-35? 36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? – Once you SEE it, you can never miss it again. Paul, who had MANY women who helped him in ministry, did not suddenly flip and tell the Body to silence women. In Romans 16, Paul sends greetings to at least 7 women who are mentioned as those who labor in the Lord. Certainly they did much more in the Body than remain silent.
Final words – If God can use a donkey to correct a prophet in the OT, He can certainly use a spirit-filled woman in the Age of Grace. But AGAIN, in the BODY, there is NEITHER MALE or FEMALE. That TRUTH will end this dispute so we can get on with saving the world.
Even if you disagree, if you are a Believer, you are my Brother or Sister in Christ. And I wish you well.
God Bless YOU!
There Is one thing to admire about Pauls letters, they are precise, clear. loveing correct instruction, he tells the Corinthians this is to all churchers.Please take note Paul in letter to Galatians chapter 1 he was chosen by God he was not taught by men or written word but by Jesus and the curse of God be upon them if they do mot follow theses instruction which come from Jesus Do women cover there hair to say they are under authority as directed by Jesus through Paul.I see preachers with there head covered exactly the opposite what is told to do when we worship God, God does not change the sams always and Paul is telling Christ to us Gentiles what has to be known to us.Remember Jesus is Pauls teacher about women teaching men and the reason is given why they cant.Eve did what she was told not too do so it is with women preachers as written, Paul in his writeings
always says when its not from the lord.
see Mark 16:14
It’s talking about women should learn in silence and not teach men right?
women are allowed to do Sunday school and teach children because we have our own children at home whom we teach as far as Bible study it’s mostly the men unless it’s an all women Bible study and also in home a women can teach with her husband in speaking into someone’s life hoping for their salvation but in church it says women should learn in silence while the Pastor is preaching and not talk if it’s in God’s word then are we just picking and choosing what we think is right and want to believe?
I believe that a woman can preach to the youth and give them bible study, if God allows Paul to of women not speaking , what was said in the Bible the word of God not man goes to say that a woman under no circumstances can have authority over a man, you have to study the scptures the word get revaluation of the word the deepness of God’s word clarity, God made man first than the women which came out of Adam’s rib put him in a deep sleep, the devil knew he could not have decived Adam who was the walking word of God , no sin in him none at all than there is Eve who the serpent deceive her she could of said go to my husband he is the walking word of God
but she didnt and was deceved , Now Adam who is the head of Eve deceved by Eve but disobedient to God ,when Eve ate the fruit nothing happen sin already took it’s place, But when Adam bites the fruit God speaks lets go back if you eat from this tree you “should surely die but a fiscally death ,But a spiritual death why why did the serpent get close to Eve two happen here devce and to plant the seed in of evil in Eve , She give birth and one was Good and the orther was evil,
So please tell me where in the Bible the scpture we’re God called or anointing a women as a Pastor of God a woman is emotionally does this mean the man is better, by no means no! they are two in one ,But there is no scpture that says God called a woman to lead in a church study the scptures ask for decrement of the Holy Ghost of God fast and talk to God in your chamber and get the revaluation of God’s word ,I don’t believe in the new generation that’s been happening in the churches they brought the world into The Lords House we have to go back to the basics the first love we have gotten to comfortable ,God said he doesn’t want a church filled of people but people filled with the church.
They honor me with there lip’s but there Hearts are far from me , pray! pray!! pray !!! and fasten and don’t leave till you a filled with the HOLY GHOST SPIRIT OF GOD INCOUNTER WITH GOD
Teaching and witnessing (which happen in small groups or one-on-one) is not the same as preaching the Word from the pulpit of a church.
It should have said female instead of w
To begin with 2 distinct articles of fact:1. Reason given for women abstaining( in the sanctuary), is respectfully placing the headship for The Brideclass, “souly in the hands of
The DESIGNATED responsible representative, such as HIGh PRIEST or better yet, JESUS CHRIST, THE BRIDEGROOM .No women preacher are qualified for “that” specifically.
Paul makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR
“ HE”, meaning the pastor elected by Gods Holy Spirit, MUST BE THE HUSBAND,( catch-that), OF ONE WIFE-WITH HIS, (specifically ), in total obedience, and HE being temperate.
Today, people are using the same wrongful adoption for same sex unions. They say one can have deep reverential love, and marry, – but again it’s The Lord who sets the rules. Not just any God fearing Israelite dare step into the Holy OfHolies – God would of destroyed then
So if we can ignore a couple of verses here and there that’s ok? Sunday school is not the public worship. women did win a victory to hold administration offices in our church. Now that the church attendance has gone from 400 to 150, and women occupy the majority of seats and responsibility they complain that the men do not do their part. can we learn anything from this now that the Genie is out of the lamp. This can now be where you say falling church attendance is a trend. when exactly did that trend start?
why did the bible say that God is the head of the church and then man its a difference between teaching and preaching you can be a pastor and a teacher aren’t there’re a difference
So let me get this straight, my Brothers in Christ… we believe that God used a donkey minus a soul, not created in His image to speak to Balaam, but He can’t use a woman, created in His image, who the Holy Spirit has given the gift of teaching to tell/teach us the good news…?