No Sacrifice for Willful Sin is Left

sacrifice for sinMany people believe that Hebrews 10:26 teaches that people lose their salvation for willful sin. This passage has perplexed Christians for centuries.

It says that “if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (NKJV).

Many people believe that this verse means that intentional, willful sin causes them to lose their salvation. It is sometimes taught that God forgives unintentional sin, but not intentional. That is, if we know something is wrong, and we do it anyway, we lose eternal life because according to Hebrews 10:26, there is no sacrifice that covers willful sin.

Part of the problem with this way of thinking is that there are very few sins which are not willful. When most people sin, they know good and well that what they are doing is wrong. So if Hebrews 10:26 means what some people claim, then nobody has eternal life, or at least, nobody is able to keep it for any length of time.

Furthermore, we have numerous examples of biblical saints who knowingly and willfully commit terrible sins. All the fathers of the faith committed willful sin, include Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So also, some of the best kings of Israel, like David and Solomon, performed terrible deeds of darkness. Even some of the prophets, like Jonah, behaved in ways they knew were terrible acts of rebellion against God. But we fully expect to see all of these people in heaven.

So what about Hebrews 10:26?

Well, it says what it says: there is no sacrifice for willful sin.

And this was true under the Levitical law. If you go through and read all the different sacrifices that are described in Leviticus and Deuteronomy for all the various types of sin, you will see that God never provides a sacrifice for willful sin. All the sacrifices are for sins that were committed in ignorance (since the law was so complex, many people transgressed the law without recognizing it until later), and for regaining purity after something in life caused uncleanness. But if someone purposefully, knowingly, and willfully transgressed the Law of God, there was no sacrifice available to them for such sins.

So was there nothing they could do?

Of course not! They committed willful sins just as frequently as we do today, and God loved them just as much as He loves us today, and God did not want to abandon them to despair any more than He wants to abandon us today. So what avenue was available to people who committed willful sin?

The same avenue that is available to us today: falling completely and solely upon the grace of God.

Forgiveness for Willful Sin

Forgiveness for willful sin has always been received through the grace of God.

Today we know that this grace is available to us through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but prior to His death and resurrection, the grace of God was still available, but they just did not understand the means by which God made it available. Instead, they just had to depend, rely, and trust on the goodness of God and His grace extended to them.

Sacrifice for willful sinWhen the author of Hebrews writes his letter, he is writing to people who want to reject the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross as sufficient for our sins, and return to dependence and reliance upon the Levitical Law. In numerous warning passages (Heb 2:1-4; 3:7-19; 5:11–6:12; 10:19-39; 12:14-29), the author of Hebrews tells his readers that if the life, death, resurrection, and High Priestly ministry of Jesus is not sufficient, then we have no hope, no forgiveness, no grace, no mercy, and no eternal life.

When the author of Hebrews writes that there is no sacrifice in the Mosaic Law for willful sin, he means exactly what he says. If we reject the complete and all-encompassing sacrifice of Jesus, no sacrifice for willful sin remains. If we reject the means by which God extends grace and mercy to us, and want to depend instead on the blood of bulls and goats, then there is no chance of forgiveness, but instead have only a “certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation” (Heb 10:27).

So thank God for Jesus, and thank God for grace!


This post is based on the Grace Commentary on Jonah. Make sure you sign up for the email newsletter to get a free digital copy of this commentary when it is released.


Comments

  1. DavidnFran says

    Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
    Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

      • DavidnFran says

        But only the Spirit of Yahweh can cause a person to understand, and then receive the Word into their hearts, submitting to It.

        Those of us that have received the true gospel, are expecting to be totally purified from all sin, in this earth, and in this lifetime, through faith in Yahshua! ALL things are going to be pure in us, the ekklesia! We are believing for, and expecting it! Nothing less is acceptable to us! We have received the truth into our hearts that the resurrection power of Yahshua is working in us unto salvation from sin! We are not to be saved from it, while still being captured by it at the same time! That is double mindedness! But those that say that even the saints of Yahweh will always be sinners, and that their purification will only be fully had when we get to heaven, undercut the gospel covenant. Without even knowing it, they are making provision for the flesh! Without even knowing it, they are teaching faithlessness! Without even knowing it, they teach that the salvation from sin, and death, bought for us by our Savior’s life, suffering, death, and resurrection, is a salvation that leaves us at least partially in the grip of the sin that He came to save us from! This is what is referred to as “denying the power of the gospel”!

        I submit that a faith in Yahshua that is less than a faith for total salvation is NOT a true gospel salvation! No provision has been made for willful sinners in ANY covenant that Yahweh has ever been a part of! We have been given grace whereby we serve Yahweh with reverence, and godly fear! Grace is the power to serve Yahweh properly! Anyone that teaches that our Savior paid the price for someone’s sin that, after receiving the knowledge of what our Savior has done for them, they can decide to disobey Him anyway, is teaching a false gospel – a “gospel” that does not conform you to godliness!

        • says

          I agree 100% that no provision for willful sinners has ever been made in any covenant… but this doesn’t mean that willful sinners are damned, but rather that willful sinners (like everyone else) must rely solely and completely on the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

          • DavidnFran says

            If you read Hebrews 10 again, I think that you will see that willful sin is trampling our Savior under foot, and that a worse judgment falls on the person that does that than what fell on the Israelite that was in the desert with Moses that gathered sticks on the sabbath day. And that person was stoned to death. In other words, they didn’t make it! Trampling our Savior under foot, according to what you say here in your article, can be a regular part of a believer’s walk and they still spend eternity in heaven with the One that they are trampling.

            Also, if getting to go to heaven is “no provision”, what is?

          • DavidnFran says

            They didn’t go to heaven for breaking Yahweh’s law, and neither will we, even if we sit on the front row at a meetin’ hall every single day, sayin’ “Jesus is Lord!”! Gettin’ killed is not good! It is not a type, and/or a shadow of eternal life! It is a type of spiritual destruction, and a warning for us in these last days! Read Hebrews 3, and 4, and see that if we fail to go in faith to take the land we are meant to take, we will die in the wilderness the way that most of Israel did. Once again, getting killed in the wilderness is not good, and it says right there that this example is a warning to us. You can make it about controversial questions if you wish, but I recommend, for myself, and everyone else, humbly submitting to these warnings.

          • says

            Yes, they are serious warnings. But again, they are warnings about physical death and other consequences, which are not tied to our eternal destiny or whether or not we have eternal life. Eternal life is a gift of God to anyone who believes in Jesus for them.

          • DavidnFran says

            Anyone that “believes in Jesus” believes in Him for the power to do what is right in His eyes, and to walk as He walked! And He honors that faith, and brings it to pass! There is no option for believing for eternity in heaven without believing for this! Yahweh gives His Spirit to those that obey Him! You are either walking in faith, and by the Spirit, pleasing Him, or you are walking in faithlessness, and in the flesh, and disobeying His Word! You can’t be in faithlessness, and in faith at the same time! You can’t be drowning, and safe on the river bank at the same time! Willful sinners are not in faith, don’t please God, and have no part in Messiah! Don’t be deceived! Those that do what is right in God’s eyes are the only ones that God considers righteous! We are instructed “not to sin!” But if we stumble, we have an advocate with the Father, our Savior. Tunnel vision caused by lying traditions of men will have you leading others through the wide gate that leads to destruction. And destruction is not good! We judge ourselves by our fruit to see if we are in the faith, or not. Yahweh wants us to know that we know we are in faith. And the only way that we can know that we know we are in the faith is if we find ourselves thinking, speaking, and acting like Yahshua, our Forerunner. That leaves out willful sinners – even the ones that say nice words about Him! You can’t be saved by faith if you aren’t in faith to begin with! We act on what we really believe, and willful sinners believe they can deliberately disobey God, trample Yahshua under foot, and still go to heaven. They are faithless, and unbelieving! Persons of faith believe that Yahshua can live out His life through them by His Spirit, bringing honor to Himself, and the Father.

            Now, I am not saying that a faithless person cannot become a person of faith! They certainly can! But if they don’t recognize, and acknowledge their faithlessness, and turn from it, and seek forgiveness for it, they can’t! And if you keep teaching faithless persons that they are faithful enough to go to heaven, but just may suffer some gruesome things here on earth for their willful rebellion toward God, you are partly responsible for what happens to them!

          • DavidnFran says

            The Spirit of Yahshuah obeys Yahweh perfectly, so anyone that walks by faith in Him, and by the Spirit, also walks, by grace, in that godly perfection with Them! It’s not about me! It’s about what They do if They have control of your life – the mystery of godliness at work – Yahshua in me, the Hope of glory! I no longer walk as the pagans do, and as I once did! I no longer live, but Yahshua lives in me in my place! I am being built up into the full stature of my Messiah, in this earth, and in this lifetime! They are working in me to will, and to want to do Their good pleasure! That’s a lot of God’s power working in someone! To willfully sin with all of this grace being poured on us to enable us to walk right in God’s eyes is a horrible sin against that Grace, and a despising of that Grace! How many people that despise God’s Grace do you think will be in heaven? Lots, apparently! But there won’t be!

            You will have to be willing to rewrite some of your books if you want to move forward with your Savior! Protecting doctrines with controversial questions, and arguments about words is where you are presently living. Until you accept the sound words of our Savior, and His very plain teachings that conform you to godliness, in this earth, and in this lifetime, you will continue to be deprived of the Truth! But the very minute that you are willing to let God rewrite your books, if He would want to, is the moment that He would have all of your heart, and that He would open your eyes to see all of His very plain words! As long as you love your doctrines more than you love Them, you are an idolater! Idolaters don’t make it, even if they have followings, and “do stuff for God”.

            It’s a good thing to find out if I am in idolatry, because, since I love God more than anything, I will be glad to repent of anything so that I can move closer to Them! So, I am not condemning anyone here! I am hoping for the very best for you! I trust that the Truth is the only Thing that will get anyone there, though, so I bring it in hope that it achieves that good purpose!

          • DavidnFran says

            Yes, and in 1 Corinthians immature Christians practiced strife and jealousy. But he did not stop there and say that it was just dandy! In 2 Corinthians he told them that he feared for them that that strife and jealousy that was in them might still be in them when he came to them again. And that his ministry to them might have been in vain. In vain means “for nothing”. Strife, and jealousy are listed among the works of the flesh that are not to even be named among the brethren, right along with murder! And Paul said at one time that he did sinful things that he hated, and failed to do the good that he wanted to do. But he did not stop there! He said that Yahshua was going to deliver him from that body of sin, and death, and he was going to overcome, and be a mature man, blameless in ALL his behavior. Just like Paul, I say what he says! I overcome by the body, and blood of Yahshua, and the word of my testimony!

            Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
            Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.

            Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
            Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

            Do you contend that inheriting the kingdom of God is different than going to heaven? Apparently you do! But Paul says otherwise! I believe Paul!

            I am giving you numerous scriptures in context, and in balance. All you have is isolated scriptures, and doctrines of men that do not conform you to godliness.

            1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
            1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
            1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

            I believe what the Word says, ahead of nice folks any day of the week! Is your heart going toward gain? You can’t make a lot in this world saying what the Word really says! It separates!

          • says

            David,
            I have nowhere said sin was okay. Sin is not okay. Don’t put words into my mouth. There are serious temporal and eternal consequences for sin.

          • DavidnFran says

            Jeremy, I am glad that you agree with the Word that sin is rebellion toward God! But you have been teaching that willfully rebellious persons will be going to heaven. This is my point of contention, because I want to make sure that, like Paul, and Yahshua, I warn everyone that the consequences of rebellion toward our Maker is everlasting damnation! And that includes if you claim to have faith in Yahshua, too, while in this rebellion! Deceived persons all over the place are claiming/thinking to have saving faith in our Savior when they don’t! The Word very plainly instructs us to examine the fruit of our lives to make sure that we are in the faith. That is what I am echoing here! The Word is very clear, when read in balance, and context, in saying that willfully rebellious persons have no place in the kingdom of God! And, as I have already repeated, that includes if you think you are going to heaven!

            I think that a traditional doctrine of men/demons is responsible for this kind of teaching. “Once saved, always saved!” is not found in the scriptures! Now I certainly believe in the security of the believer! But, I certainly do not believe in the security of the non believer that thinks that they are a believer, that has been convinced, through false teachings, that they are believers when they are not! These kinds of teachings like the one you have here is having false converts never find out that they are not really in the faith! And never finding out, they never have reason/opportunity to repent, and enter into the faith. This is a horrible tragedy, in my thinking, and I cannot stand by idly when I see it!

            I called out to God to save me when I was 21. He miraculously worked in response to my cry! But I was 44 before I could say with assurance that I was in Yahshua. I looked back on all of the willful sin that had still been in my life after crying out, and I could see that I had been loving that sin more than I loved the Father, and the Son. Until I came to a place where I was ready to lay it all down, I did not have eyes to see, or an ability to face the truth about myself! I saw that I had not been in the faith, but had only really acknowledged that I needed to be in the faith. I was in a wilderness where God was getting me to a place where I could even conceive of entering in to His promised land. This is the context of all of my previous statements here. I know that I know that I am in Them now because I find myself in continuous surrender to Them! I am in faith based on the fruit of my life. I continue to inspect my life as the Word shines it’s marvelous Light, in hopes of being further conformed to Their image, through repentance from all dead works! I am not trying to earn my salvation! I am just cooperating with the Spirit in me, to the praise, and honor of the Father, and the Son! Having seen all of this, how the promised land is attainable, and meant to be possessed, I want everyone to have opportunity to go in! I am in agreement with God on this!

          • says

            David,

            I think you don’t know much about what I believe. You keep assuming certain things about my belief, and then accusing me of these things.

            Here is my suggestion. Before we continue this conversation, study up on what I believe, and then bring your questions. Just look through the archives of this blog, or do some searches using the Google Search button. If you don’t want to do this, then the conversation needs to end here.

            I am glad that you want to teach the truth as you see it, but my blog is not the location for you to do that. Instead, I recommend you start a blog of your own and let people come to you to ask questions and to learn.

          • DavidnFran says

            Hebrews 10:26 is the verse that “got me saved”. When I received the truth in that verse, I could no longer justify being a willful sinner. God had got me to a place where I could face the truth about my sins, and about how I was really a lost sinner that knew his need for a Savior, but had not really repented of ALL my sins. The Spirit of God used that verse to convict me, and bring me to repentance for ALL my sins, and THEN, ever increasing faith in Yahshua. Your explanation of this verse would not have accomplished this in my life, but would have allowed me to continue justifying the sin in my life, to the glory of satan! When I interpret a difficult passage, I now ask, “How will this best conform me to godliness?”. That is the best test that I know of for interpreting hard passages, and for determining whether someone has really received the true gospel! I know what I know ONLY because I have been caused to believe what God says!

          • Uber1911 says

            I am probably ill equipped to post a reply to this discussion but I have some questions?
            If a person commits a sin is it not he or she that commits the sin and ultimately resposible for the consequences? That would seem to make the sinner the responsible party for the sin according to the New Covenant and making all sin “willful” and short of the Glory of God? Is not the consequence of sin death? How many “unwillful” sins does it take to equal a “willful” sin in God’s Eyes? Is there anyone who is righteous who walks or has walked this earth as a human being, except Jesus Christ? Can people attain Godly perfection in their lives by their own doings? If our fleshly, carnal bodies can become perfect, why do they die? Where is it stated that we can attain forgiveness and heaven by anything other than believing the Grace of God through, in and of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ? If not for Jesus Christ would not just one sin qualify the sinner for an eternity without God?
            I am not trying to be a wise acre with this post! I don’t know much about the above people who have posted. It seems to me that we are all sinners and always will be as long as we are in these bodies and there is no hope in anything we can do of or by our own selves. Jesus Christ has been alone in qualifying, the rest of us can’t comprehend how utterly miserable we have, do and continue to fail. My intention has not been to be mean spirited to anyone or in anyway.

          • Edwin Pastor FedEx Aldrich says

            Uber,

            I think you pretty much have it right, you seem to be pretty well equipped to me. Just like those in Paul’s time, there are those today that want to add something to salvation. Repentance is a work and if we really had to repent of all of our sins before God could save us then there would be no hope for any of us. Jesus even went as far as calling out our sinful thoughts even when they don’t lead to action. So I think it truly impossible to repent of all our sin, I would even say that just confessing all our sin is impossible. The fact is, that the Good news is not that God gives us the power to keep the law better, Romans 7 pretty much rules this out, no the good news is that God DID what the law could not do and in Christ fulfilled the just requirements of the law as we see in Romans 8. The Gospel is not that God makes it so we can somehow do it, but THAT GOD HAS DONE IT. Just as you say, our duty is to recognize our helplessness and inability and throw ourselves on God’s gracious provision in Christ’s sacrifice.

          • DavidnFran says

            If you think that Yahshua had special powers over, and above what we have access to that enabled Him to obey God, that would be saying that He did not come in the same flesh that we are living in. That would be saying that He did not really lay down all of His power when He came to this world, and that none of us could ever follow in His foot steps. But He did! And since He is our Forerunner, we are supposed to run after Him, and run the same way that He ran! He lived by the Spirit, and we are given grace to do the same, if we only could believe! And then, after throwing ourselves on the mercy of God for forgiveness, we would also throw ourselves on His mercy to cause us to will, and to want to do His good pleasure. If you don’t believe, or want to believe, that it is possible, then for you it will not be! But for the believing, He is faithful to bring it to pass!

            Repentance from all known dead works is the first teaching of Our Savior. (You can’t repent of dead works that you don’t know about yet.) Then after that He taught faith in God. You can’t do the latter until you’ve done the first! I would know because I tried to do it the other way, but like the Word predicts, it does not work!

            Shalom!

          • Uber1911 says

            I am sorry that you are of this mind! You want to demonstrate “your” truth by signs and works that you have been part of and experienced but show no scriptural support or choose to apply scripture as your own private interpretation! Romans 3:10-23 is clear in defining your, our(every person) state of and in sin! You have been deceived and I hope and pray that you find the TRUTH!

          • DavidnFran says

            You should include these verses:

            Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
            Rom 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

            You tell a true brother that he is deceived for believing that the resurrection power of Yahshua is strong enough to cause him to die to all sin, becoming a mature man, giving Yahshua a place to live in the earth in him by His Spirit, and so have a place in the earth to live out His nature, and character, to His glory, and the glory of the Father. But you tell a false brother that he is doing very well in his ongoing practice of sin, as he acknowledges his absolute, and unchangeable inability to ever leave sin behind.

            Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

            Just as sin was passed down to us from Adam, doing what is right in God’s eyes has been passed down to us from Yahshuah, unless we have something else worked out!

            Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
            Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
            Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
            Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
            Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
            Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
            Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

            When you repent – turn away from – all known sin, you are dying, and being buried with your Savior. Only AFTER that can you rise to live in this newness of life! You must die before you can rise! You teach that we can never really die to all of the world, the flesh, and the demonic, so for you, that is your confession, and that is your reality.

            Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
            Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
            Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
            Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
            Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
            Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
            Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
            Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

            My confession is that I am dead to sin, and alive to God, so, God honors my faith, and brings to pass what I am confessing! I am not condemning anyone here! I am hoping that you can get in on this newness of life! Is there anything wrong with finding yourself as the recipient of the free gift of walking in the God kind of love, where you see God loving through you, and manifesting His fruit instead of the fruit of the devil? Or do you really think, as it seems you are saying here, that God gets more glory from those that confess that, as long as they are in this world, they will be in bondage to a certain amount of sin, than from those, like myself, that confess that they are free from sin, and servants of righteousness through the power of Yahshua? By the way, even though I have not quoted chapter, and verse on all of my comments, everything I have said has been straight from the Word! I WAS a servant of sin, but NOW, I am a servant of doing what is right in God’s eyes! And I do it by faith in my Savior, Who is my only boast! This is all the gift of God!

          • Fo Hunter says

            I believe you are sincere in your understanding but your position is not quite reconciled with the Bible in its entirety. You treat the sin issue appropriately by attributing great importance to not sinning, but in your zeal you do not treat the human imperfection and sanctification and glorification processes of God correctly. or at least your position does not allow in your position appropriate room for what scripture says these divine works accomplish within the believer.

  2. Evidence2Hope says

    There are things that I struggle with that I often wonder if I should be as a Christian. There are certain things I do that I know I shouldn’t, that I know God won’t be happy with…..but I do them anyway. it’s called temptation and me not being strong enough to resist. Paul, if I’m understanding him correctly, talks about what he wants to do but can’t, and what he doesn’t want to do but does anyway:

    We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. (Romans 7:14-20)

    This has helped me make sense of I why I continue to struggle things even though I am in Christ. Also is a powerful statement as to the nature of sin. Gods grace doesn’t come with fine print or caveats. Doesn’t give me free reign to do what I want but then, it isn’t me that’s doing it (though that does sound a bit of a cop out)

    • DavidnFran says

      I am so glad that Paul was honest about his struggles! And I am also very glad that he told us that he was going on to overcome! We need to have faith for overcoming even when we are not! This is a process that we will not continue in if we have decided that it cannot be done. That is why I emphasize believing for overcoming the same way that Paul did. Paul went on to say that he would be delivered from those sins that were operating from within him. He did not accept them, and encouraged us to believe God for total freedom from them as well. That is gospel faith! And that is what our heavenly Father is trying to get us to receive!

      1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

      Peter was telling believers that satan would devour them if he got the chance. Being devoured is not good!

      1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
      1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].
      1Pe 5:11 To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

      When we resist temptation, the devil cannot devour us, although we will suffer for a little while. But if we keep resisting through that suffering, God will establish us as mature overcomers to His honor forever. He is faithful to bring it to pass! He gets us through to a place of freedom, and peace, but we must believe that He will do it because He says it, and because He is true to His Word!

    • says

      You are on the right track. The love and grace of God inspires and challenges us to live for Jesus and follow God, but it does not give us an “you better do this, or else” threat.

      Any overcoming of sin that we experience in our life comes not from our own strength or resolve, but simply because we are learning to trust in the Father’s love, and rely on the power of the Holy Spirit.

      • DavidnFran says

        I would say that Yahshua living inside any person that has died to this world, the flesh, and the demonic allows them to experience the mystery of godliness – Yahshua in them living out the God kind of love, in which there is no flaw of any kind. This has nothing to do with them having become a better person because they have nice thoughts, and feelings about God! Those thoughts and feelings toward God are certainly there in every true disciple! It only comes from seeking, and then finding out that the way to life is through death! All the nice feelings for God are for nothing if we fail to die, and so go in to the promised land of rest from all sinful works! We die so that They have a place to live out Their nature, and character! We get in on it because we have bothered to check on how They have all of this set up, and we are doing it Their way! And it is all by grace so that no man can boast of “living for Jesus”, because They are doing all of the living through us! It is not about us!

        Paul warns us that we can fall away from the faith if we treat this grace with contempt. This is no threat, but it is a sure word as to how God has set things up. This is a grace that totally removes, if we receive it in faith, the mystery of iniquity from us so that the mystery of godliness has somewhere to operate! It is not about putting more of Jesus on! It is about getting rid of the world, the flesh, and the demonic through dying to it! (Dying is not an action, by the way, so it is not works! Sinning is works!) God picks it up from there!

        • Fo Hunter says

          Let me show you a more perfect way: Brother there are many who struggle with this and there is an answer
          located in this very text that solves your dilemma, and the above
          explanation is NOT it! Any time you reason the answer to scripture from
          your opinion and once you say this is what the scripture means then you
          can find other scripture to back up what you say because you just up and
          changed the meaning of the original text. This text does not speak
          about the law or the old testament times. It is speaking about New
          Testament and the covering of sins by the blood of our savior Jesus the
          Christ! Now, the first thing we must do with all scripture is to
          understand its context in history and culture and to take it literally
          if it is spoken to be taken literally. I believe this scripture is to be
          taken literally and not metaphorically explained away. Secondly and
          most importantly we need to understand what is actually being said. We
          need to look at the grammar and the meanings of the important
          theological words and wording. IE “willful” I will not go into deep
          explanation but simply stated, this passage is not speaking to people
          who commit sins on purpose but to people who practice sin as an accepted
          way of life.not people like you and I and the apostle Paul who says in
          Phillipians 312Not
          that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I
          press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold
          of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren,
          I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I
          do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies
          ahead,…fighting
          the good fight and willfully sinning are two different things!
          Therefore, if people think they can willfully go on sinning and the
          sacrifice of Jesus on the cross covers them, they are sadly mistaken,
          But if we sin (on purpose) out of weakness and imperfection then as 1
          John writes, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so
          that you may not
          sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus
          Christ
          the righteous;” So you see this does not do violence to the text like
          the above explanation. We can not just make up answers to hard questions
          concerning scripture. We must stay as close as possible to the text and
          reason it out guided by other text of scripture according to what is
          written and not according to some random explanation of men. So I pray
          that this helps you to understand and appreciate God;’s word on this
          topic. P.S. An excellent method of approaching biblical interpretation
          is the Historical-Grammatical method. http://www.endtimes.org/gramma

      • Fo Hunter says

        Brother there are many who struggle with this and there is an answer
        located in this very text that solves your dilemma, and the above
        explanation is NOT it! Any time you reason the answer to scripture from
        your opinion and once you say this is what the scripture means then you
        can find other scripture to back up what you say because you just up and
        changed the meaning of the original text. This text does not speak
        about the law or the old testament times. It is speaking about New
        Testament and the covering of sins by the blood of our savior Jesus the
        Christ! Now, the first thing we must do with all scripture is to
        understand its context in history and culture and to take it literally
        if it is spoken to be taken literally. I believe this scripture is to be
        taken literally and not metaphorically explained away. Secondly and
        most importantly we need to understand what is actually being said. We
        need to look at the grammar and the meanings of the important
        theological words and wording. IE “willful” I will not go into deep
        explanation but simply stated, this passage is not speaking to people
        who commit sins on purpose but to people who practice sin as an accepted
        way of life.not people like you and I and the apostle Paul who says in
        Phillipians 312Not
        that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I
        press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold
        of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren,
        I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I
        do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies
        ahead,…fighting
        the good fight and willfully sinning are two different things!
        Therefore, if people think they can willfully go on sinning and the
        sacrifice of Jesus on the cross covers them, they are sadly mistaken,
        But if we sin (on purpose) out of weakness and imperfection then as 1
        John writes, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so
        that you may not
        sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus
        Christ
        the righteous;” So you see this does not do violence to the text like
        the above explanation. We can not just make up answers to hard questions
        concerning scripture. We must stay as close as possible to the text and
        reason it out guided by other text of scripture according to what is
        written and not according to some random explanation of men. So I pray
        that this helps you to understand and appreciate God;’s word on this
        topic. P.S. An excellent method of approaching biblical interpretation
        is the Historical-Grammatical method. http://www.endtimes.org/gramma

      • Fo Hunter says

        Sanctification is what you are describing and your right but what you are saying does not deal with the scripture commands to 1. Be a hearer and a doer of God’s word and Jesus’ statement concerning keeping his commandments. Shouldn’t you address those as well so that you don’t lead people to think that the process is somehow simply ” learning to trust in the Father’s love, and rely on the power of the Holy Spirit.”? These kinds of incomplete responses are what leads people to claim to be saints but live unruly lives and just say things like “God is not through with me yet” or “everybody sins” IE. Its okay. Its not okay and one must WORK out their salvation and FIGHT the good fight. Saved by grace thru faith (NOT OF WORKS) but James says he will show his faith with words, because faith without works is DEAD! Its not just simply learning to trust in the Father’s love, and rely on the power of the Holy Spirit.

    • Fo Hunter says

      Hello brother. I call you brother because I hear the sincerity for Jesus in your post. Brother there are many who struggle with this and there is an answer located in this very text that solves your dilemma, and the above explanation is NOT it! Any time you reason the answer to scripture from your opinion and once you say this is what the scripture means then you can find other scripture to back up what you say because you just up and changed the meaning of the original text. This text does not speak about the law or the old testament times. It is speaking about New Testament and the covering of sins by the blood of our savior Jesus the Christ! Now, the first thing we must do with all scripture is to understand its context in history and culture and to take it literally if it is spoken to be taken literally. I believe this scripture is to be taken literally and not metaphorically explained away. Secondly and most importantly we need to understand what is actually being said. We need to look at the grammar and the meanings of the important theological words and wording. IE “willful” I will not go into deep explanation but simply stated, this passage is not speaking to people who commit sins on purpose but to people who practice sin as an accepted way of life.not people like you and I and the apostle Paul who says in Phillipians 312Not
      that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I
      press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold
      of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren,
      I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I
      do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies
      ahead,…fighting the good fight and willfully sinning are two different things! Therefore, if people think they can willfully go on sinning and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross covers them, they are sadly mistaken, But if we sin (on purpose) out of weakness and imperfection then as 1 John writes, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not
      sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus
      Christ the righteous;” So you see this does not do violence to the text like the above explanation. We can not just make up answers to hard questions concerning scripture. We must stay as close as possible to the text and reason it out guided by other text of scripture according to what is written and not according to some random explanation of men. So I pray that this helps you to understand and appreciate God;’s word on this topic. P.S. An excellent method of approaching biblical interpretation is the Historical-Grammatical method. http://www.endtimes.org/grammat.html

      • says

        This whole discussion here is a little strange. I am not exactly sure what is being said or who is arguing against whom.

        But Fo, be careful. You say that people should not use their opinions on what the text means, but it appears to me that you have done exactly that in your explanation of the text.

        No man is an infallible interpreter of Scripture, stating simply what the text says. Even a Bible translation is an act of providing a human interpretive opinion.

        • Fo Hunter says

          There is only one correct interpretation if scripture is clear and all the rest are misinterpretations! One interpretation and many applications. We do come to the text with biases and preconceived notions that may influence our interpretations even if we are extremely careful and practice the critical art of historical-grammatical interpretation method. Yes humans are falliable but if you take that to mean that we can not be sure and speak authoritatively concerning scriptural truths then your mistaken. we send people to death chambers based on reason, deductively and inductively, and ponder evidence that is often extremely unclear and formulate an opinion of truth or in court cases beyond a reasonable doubt. When it comes to scripture though we have a written record that yes must be read and therefore interpreted but has been done so throughout the history of the Church and corrected by the same through the oversight and guidance of God himself and it endures even till today. We validate scripture by other scripture (In context) we validate the context of a passage within the book it is found and then in the chapter its found and then in the book that it is found and finally in the context of the whole Bible. We validate the meaning of a scripture in light of Christian history and the writings of those who have laid the foundations of our faith through history such as Josephus who knew Paul and we compare and see if what we understand the text to be saying is in agreement or disagreement with history and the working and leading of the Holy Spirit throughout history. We must research the Greek and Hebrew and even beyond to the Acadian era and see how words have changed and the literary usage of words not only in religious writings but in extra-biblical and literary and common writings that relate to the scripture that we are interpreting. This is why God appointed ELDERS and TEACHERS to equip the saints for service! We are fallible but God is not and he has made a way for us to KNOW him and his word for CERTAIN!

  3. tanny says

    Hi thanks for this cos that scripture has given mea lot of sleeplessnights. Jesus came for freedom and could it be? Could it just be that there is even more grace for me. I need grace. Could it be?

    • says

      Yes! Not only could it be true… it IS true.

      There is infinite, outrageous grace through Jesus Christ. No matter what you have said or done, He loves you and forgives you. His grace is given to you.

      • Fo Hunter says

        I’m not nitpicking. I am trying to get you to understand that you must be careful to instruct properly if you are going to instruct. Jesus says in Matt. 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.” So it is not true that
        “No matter what you have said or done, He loves you and forgives you.” unless the Bible is wrong and your right.

        • says

          Fo,

          You must be careful to instruct properly if you are going to instruct. I have a different understanding of Matthew 12:31 than you do. So it is not “me vs. the Bible” but my understanding vs. your understanding.

          • Fo Hunter says

            Here is the verse, and I am open and willing to see what is written here and understand so show me how this scripture that speaks so emphatically and forthrightly can mean something other than a certain sin can not and will not be forgiven, namely the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

            Matthew 12:31-32

            New American Standard Bible (NASB)

            31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 Whoever [a]speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever [b]speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

          • says

            Fo,

            I have written a 100-page book on this verse. It is available there in the sidebar. I am not going to try to summarize the book or debate the points I made in the book here in the comments.

            Here is the point. Obviously, there is a sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which will not be forgiven. I don’t argue that point. But I was responding directly to a person named “Tanny” when I said that no matter what they had said or done, God had forgiven them. The way I understand Matthew 12:31-32, if someone had committed that sin, they would not be concerned about committing it. Tanny obviously was concerned, which means the convicting work of the Holy Spirit was upon them, and therefore, they had not committed it.

          • Fo Hunter says

            That’s fine. I may read the book and I appreciate your answer although I must say that if a person asked if God forgave every sin I would say yes, except for the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. One last question please. Can you tell me a little about your theological background? IE. Where you went to school, denomination or doctrinal affiliation you may share with a particular denomination or camp.
            Thank you .

          • Fo Hunter says

            I found your “Story” and I must say that I am saddened that you left orthodox Christianity for whatever it is that you have now. You said in the article that people were mean and that Jesus loved everyone and this led to you reading books by people branded heretics and it changed your view on CHristianity and how you read the Bible.. 1. Mean people come in all religions, races, and otherwise. THe crusades were supposed to be CHristian but they weren’t they were wars fought in the name of God but not for God! That is not Christianity. Those mean people are not living Christ but they may or may not have been Christian. Jesus loved the world while they were yet sinners but he came preaching REPENTANCE and openly confronted and angrily opposed sin, but still died for all. So Jesus just loving everybody is true but loving someone does not mean approving or accepting everything they do. As for your schooling, I’d like to know what seminary that was because I don’t know what kind of seminary would not want you to read a book because it was written by a “Heretic” lol! At Washington Bible College and Capital Bible Seminary they taught you how to think thru heretical arguments in light of scripture and come to reason it out for yourself AND how can any CHristian Apologist be worth anything if they don’t know and understand the heretical views that oppose Orthodox Christianity!? What Seminary did you attend and why are you so open about how your history shaped who you are today but you hide the actual names and specific places and institutions. If they are not good places shouldn’t you warn others so that they will not fall into the same snare and learn from your life? Why so secretive in this and forthcoming in everything else?

  4. tanny says

    In the mouth of 2-3 witnesses. Checked 2 other websites at random. Saying exactly the same thing. Now I’ve got my kind God back. Thanks

  5. CB says

    You”re in serious trouble if you think Hebrews 10:26 doesn’t mean what it’s says. You can also read 1 John 3:6-10 and many other verses related to this. With true faith comes obedience to God’s word. The two go hand and hand. If you are in an adulterous relationship, for example, and you claim to know the Lord and continue to live in that lifestyle that is very strong proof that you are not really saved. The Lord knows we sin and are not perfect (moments of weakness, ignorance etc) and when we do we repent but we don’t live in a lifestyle of sin if we are truly saved. That’s what Hebrews 10:26 is talking about.

    • says

      Ha! Well, actually, I do believe Hebrews 10:26 means what it says. I just think it says something different than what you think it says. I believe that your take on these passages is leading to a works-based salvation, which is the same thing that every religion in the world teaches.

      • CB says

        “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46) Jesus said it Himself. He’s not talking about any kind of works here He’s talking about obeying His commands. He’s talking about people who claim to know Him but really don’t because they are not obedient to Him. They’re lifestyle is proof they don’t know Him. He not only becomes our Savior, when you’re truly saved, He becomes our “Lord”. He’s talking about obeying His commands it has nothing to do with works (fasting, tithes etc..). He commands and we obey that’s why He is “Lord and Savior” not just Savior. So going back to the point you will not continue in a lifestyle of sin adultery,homosexuality, etc.. if you are truly saved. That’s what Hebrews 10:26 means. Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin. If you know this and continue to stay in a lifestyle of sin you are mocking His sacrifice.

        • says

          Lifestyle is proof of nothing. Many of the nicest and most “obedient” people I know, do not know Jesus. So if it’s works we are comparing, then many Buddhists and Mormons are getting in to heaven before most Christians.

          Do you still sin? How long has it been since you last sinned? How long can you go without sinning? A minute? Two? An hour? If you are honest with yourself, probably not much more than that. So if you cannot go more than hour without sinning, then you are continuing in sin. And if continuing in sin proves that someone is not a Christian, then you, my friend, are not a Christian.

          • CB says

            Jeremy we are not comparing works I’m talking about obedience, a joyful obedience that comes upon you through the Holy Spirit. Obedience is not a burden like “works”. There are a lot of nice people that live good moral lives but like you said don’t know Jesus. That’s why you have to have both faith + obedience not just faith and not just obedience. Let’s take adultery because the Bible talks a lot about sexual sin. You can’t sit there and willfully sin (disobedience) (have sex with a married man/woman or you yourself are married) then say well Lord I’m sorry for that. Go do it again and then say Lord I’m sorry for that. Go do it again and say Lord I’m sorry for that. Like I said we sin when we are saved but we don’t continue in a pattern of sin. It’s called “cheap” grace and there is no such thing.

            In 1 Corinthians Paul (through the power of the Holy Spirit) is writing to the church of Corinth. He’s writing his letter to believers not non-believers. He’s writing to people of the church who claim to know Christ. He’s writing to them after he heard of the way they were living and being disobedient to the Lord. If obedience doesn’t matter then why does Paul through the power of the Holy Spirit write the letter?

          • says

            I do not believe in cheap grace, that is for sure. I believe in free grace. Completely free, with no strings attached. Shocking, outrageous, scandalous grace.

      • Fo Hunter says

        Its not work based its proof that you have been saved by grace THROUGH FAITH! James 2:17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But
        someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your
        faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.…James is not preaching a works based salvation, He is preaching or rather God through him is telling us that TRUE believers have works that prove their faith is a living Saving FAITH!

        • says

          Fo Hunter,

          I am quite aware of James 2 and have written about it on this blog in numerous places. Just do a search for “James 2″ in the search box on the right.

          Please understand that every Bible verse you think contradicts my position has been studied in detail. I have read scores of books from your position, and even used to believe the same way you do. But over the course of study, teaching, and writing, have come to a different conclusion of what those texts mean.

      • DavidnFran says

        The popular notion that defines the grace of Yahweh as “unmerited favor” is at least partly to blame for the common confusion seen in many comments here. Grace is defined in the Word as “the power to serve Elohim with reverence, and godly fear”, which is a good thing, by the way. We certainly experience unmerited favor in our relationship with our Creator, but that does not justify redefining the word “grace”. This has it’s beginnings in the hand-me-down traditions of men.

        Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
        Heb 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

        It mentions here that the One that we say that we serve is a “Consuming Fire” because, if you do not make good use of the grace that He makes available to you to empower you to serve Him properly, you will get burned up! That is not a problem for those of us that find the Father, Son, and Spirit working within them to do His will! We like it this way because They do! We are in agreement with Them, in other words. That’s why in Hebrews 10:29 we are told that sinning against the grace of God has terrible consequences. Having been given, through Yahshua, the power to serve God properly, which is Their grace toward us, and then to willfully do otherwise is a horrible thing to do, to put it lightly!

        Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
        Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
        Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
        Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

        This theme runs all through Hebrews, but some smart folks have written some thick books to explain away the simple words written there.

        Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
        Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
        Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.
        Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
        Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
        Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
        Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

        Believers can become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. That is why we are warned here. Hebrews 10;26 is also a warning not to be deceived by sin, with it’s destructive outcome.

        Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
        Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
        Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
        Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
        Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

        It very plainly says here that most of Israel was practicing sin, and they were faithless. That is because these 2 characteristics go hand in hand together. It also states that they were unable, because of these characteristics, to enter in to God’s rest. And if you think, as I do, that this is addressed to us, you will make note here that we are warned not to do what they did! This is a pattern of teaching all though Hebrews!

        What do you make of the following verses? I know that “obeying Him” is the same thing as “believing in Him”! What do thick books say about these verses? How do they explain away this simple statement?

        Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
        Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

        Here we go again – more scriptures in Hebrews about doing what is right in God’s eyes! It says here that you are not mature if you don’t teach “righteousness”. And by the way, if Yahshua lives in you, His righteousness will be manifested through you!

        Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
        Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
        Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

        These next verses are some doozies! It says that repenting of sin is a basic, foundational principal regarding your walk with God, and that every baby christian should be doing that! And they need to move on past that to perfection! What is the explanation of this from some thick books? Oh, and it puts repentance before faith in God right here for a reason, too! You don’t have faith in God without a lifestyle of ongoing repentance from all dead works!

        Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

        These next verses are some hard ones, but if we love God, should we not love the way that He has set things up? We say that we love Him!

        Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
        Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
        Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

        Do you see a pattern here? I do! This book is a warning against falling away from the faith! Israel was saved out of Egypt, but most of them got destroyed later on. We are warned not to end up like them! How many times does it have to say the same thing over, and over before we listen to the Word here instead of thick books that try to explain it all away? The best test for understanding scripture is to ask, “How does this conform me to the image of my Savior, in this earth, and in this lifetime?” That is how you interpret scripture if your heart is to follow our Forerunner! He learned obedience through the things that He suffered. But we are seemingly supposed to block out the word “obedience” from our vocabulary to prove that we are not in “works”? “Works” is practicing sin, for cryin’ out loud! When you enter the rest of God you no longer want to sin. You are in liberty, and freedom, and repent quickly if you stumble. It is a natural thing to WANT to obey God when you love Him! If I WANT to obey God, that means that my will is lining up with His. If my feelings line up, too, with His, is that OK with you’ll? Or do thick books say that is wrong also? He came to save my soul, you know! Could saving my soul actually mean bringing them out of alignment with the world, the flesh, and the demonic, and in to alignment with Elohim? Yes! Our Forerunner did it here, and so, by faith, will I! Since He came to save me from thinking, speaking, and acting like the devil, then it is only normal to mature into a perfect man! This is the greatest miracle that a person can get in on, but that is precisely what is available to us in the grace of God! And no man can boast because we are just getting in on the life of our Savior as He indwells us by His Spirit, causing us to will, and to want to do His good pleasure!

        Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

        Heb 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
        Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

        Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
        Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

        Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

        Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
        Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
        Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

        What do you need to be chastened for if you aren’t being washed by your Heavenly Father of all of your sins? That IS salvation! It says here that if you are not receiving correction, you are a bastard, and no son! You have to be a son to make it to heaven!

        Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.

        Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

        What do thick books say about being partakers of His holiness? Just “believe” in Jesus and God will count you as “holy”! I think we should teach the whole gospel that says that God is able to set us apart to Himself in thought word, and deed, and bring our mind, will, and emotions into harmony with His! If you don’t believe that He can do it, how will you ever get in on it? You can’t! Please remember, Israel did not believe that God could take them in to this land, so God fixed it to where they would never be able to. They never made it, and neither will we, if we don’t believe!

        Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;

        If grace is unmerited favor, how could anyone fail in making use of it?

        Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
        Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
        Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,

        If we have come here, who are these just men made perfect? Do you think that maybe that is supposed to be us? It’s supposed to be, if we can move on past the basic foundational principles, and the thick books, and the traditions of men that make God’s Word null, and void!

          • DavidnFran says

            Nor have I read all of your books. Your comments here are sufficient for me! Thank you!

        • Fo Hunter says

          David your views promote an Armenian view of salvation. I believe that saints can not lose their salvation but that is not at issue here but needed to comment since Hebrews is being quoted here. . I also hold that your definition of Grace is not sufficient in and of itself to dismiss “unmerited favor” I DO agree that it (unmerited favor) is also incomplete and a bit misleading. I AGREE that grace is God’s “Enabling Power” that he gives to us even though we do not deserve it! (IE. Unmerited favor) And I see Grace as more than “the power to serve Elohim with reverence, and godly fear” In face the Bible verse you sited does not offer a definition of Grace but speaks to a byproduct of Grace. IE. BY GRACE we can do this… Grace is used as the agent which enables us to achieve “the power to serve Elohim with reverence, and godly fear” which is at best one of (imo) the many RESULTS of grace but not grace in and of itself. In addition, if you apply your definition to other verses of scripture (within their context) your definition does not fit without doing violence to the text. IE. Romans 11:6.And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works. So this verse would read And if by ([God giving us] power to serve Elohim with reverence, and godly fear then it cannot be based on works. This is circular in reasoning, meaning that if grace is God enabling us to do works by grace then it can not be based on works! It just doesn’t fit unless one tries to MAKE it fit. That being said, I DO AGREE with most of the rest of your assertions, not that this carries any weight but for what its worth I do agree. OH, And the thickness of a book is not a valid measure of validity or worth. lol.

          • DavidnFran says

            It does no violence to the text because Yahshua in you is responsible for ALL of the good that is lived out through you, unless you are still doing the living, and so, rightly taking credit for it! If you die, and Yahshua takes your place, as it is supposed to be, what credit do you get any good done through you? None! When God gets you to a place where you can believe for entering in to the promised land of perfect love, then you can see things that you never saw before! If, however, one were to insist, as almost all of Israel insisted, that it is impossible to enter in completely to that land of rest, then, as Hebrews plainly explains, one would be in danger of being disallowed that opportunity forever! Hebrews states that this example is a warning to us!

            The reason that I talk about “thick books” is because it takes a lot of words to explain away what the true gospel says over, and over in many very simple, straightforward ways. It gets complicated when we start justifying anything but being conformed to our Savior in thought, word, and deed, in this world, and in this lifetime.

            As far as circular reasoning goes, I think it is more of a linear reasoning. Believers are obedient, and unbelievers are disobedient! It is straightforward, and plain! The minute that a person believes what the Word says about being enabled to walk like our Savior walked, our heavenly Father honors that faith by bringing that very thing to pass! If, on the other hand, a person insists that it is impossible to do anything but practice sin to a certain extent, then, being like faithless Israel, they are in a place where they will never be able to enter in to the promised land of rest, and peace. It gets complicated when we try to keep pet sins – idols – while still trying to be set apart to God – holy. It is a lot worse than circular!

            Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
            Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

            Thanks for your response!

  6. Fo Hunter says

    I agree. But it seems that you err on the other side of that extreme. Do you believe that you have no responsibility to do your best to live holy unto God? AND if you willfully (practice) a sinful life that you are still saved? Believers Enabled by the Holy Spirit can not live that way! It is impossible and therefore if one lives this way they could have never been born again to start with.

  7. Mark g says

    Jeremy,
    Thank you for this wonderful post. It can’t get any clearer, and more in line with scripture, than how you have described it. I love it!
    Mark g.

  8. Raphael says

    I have been reading with much interest all the posts here concerning Hebrews, and the person who treads underfoot Yahshua and sinning that there is no longer any atonement for doing this. I have pondered this myself as we all have for many years. Here tonight something I had never considered before came to me reading all of these posts. This puts me in the mind of Satan’s character here is a being that was so very close to God himself, that most assuredly communed with God often. Then basically sinned against God (rebelled) and now seems because of this there is no hope for him. That is a very close parallel to the Hebrews topic to me. No one could have been any more believing in God than Satan. Yet he sinned grievously, and it seems that he has hardened his heart so that he will not be able to repent if that is even possible because of it. He is totally alien to God now and his ways. Couldn’t this also be said about the willful sinner ? Satan it seems is so hardened he will never come back, but if you do, sin and do not harden your heart and can still beg for forgiveness at some point in your life change, or the holy spirit is still working with you. I feel you could stop and be forgiven. King David was indwelt by the holy spirit and sinned willfully and begged for the spirit not to be taken away from him. I believe that he will be resurrected and in Gods holy Kingdom. This spiritual change may not happen all at once but take some time, I’m not certain, just a thought. Anyway I was in this same scenario and I grew so sick of myself and sinning against Yahshua that it did finally stop after much praying and soul searching. Now Its like I am a totally different person, I have to be honest that the thoughts are still there but I never act upon the sin any more. My relationship with God has returned and I feel like I have been forgiven, even though Hebrews is still haunting me. What I did was terrible I know. I can only hope that Gods grace abounds and is available for all of us who are sincere. If not it is a terrible thing to fall in to the hands of the living God!!!

    • says

      Raphael,

      You make a good point. There is one primary difference between Satan and us humans, however. Jesus never died for the sins of Satan, nor did Jesus ever offer eternal life to Satan if Satan would believe in Him for it. You have been forgiven, and if you believe in Jesus for eternal life, you have it, no matter what you might have said or done.

  9. Alicia Dyson says

    Honestly, everyone is pretty spot on with just an issue of misunderstanding each other. It goes like this. Faith in Christ produces salvation which then enables the holy spirit to reside within which in turn exercises his will over mine and through his power perfects me producing good works. You cannot have one part of the equation without the rest. If you are not producing works then the issue is, are you truly saved? It is not that works produce salvation but true faith equals good fruit or works in the end. Being truly saved boils down to allowing the holy spirit to work within you. It means surrendering your will to god. It means dying to your flesh. It means saying I want to give up all sin for god. When a person lives in perpetual sin, they have not fully submitted their will to god. The verse isn’t discussing a sin done knowingly, but a constant state of rebellious sin. Let me put it this way, being a christian, when you sin does it feel good? No. You feel ucky. You feel convicted. Nowwhere does conviction come from? The holy spirit who dwells within me. So working backwards, sin produces conviction by the holy spirit who dwells within me because I surrender my will and because I received him through salvation by my faith. So you take out one part of the equation: conviction. ask yourself, if I am not convicted, am I truly saved? It is not that we lose our salvation but that were we ever saved to begin with? The scripture talks about many who believe but few will enter the kingdom. It says even demons believed and they shudder. It says many will come saying lord lord we did all these things in your name, but god will say he never knew them. Believing in Christ is the only way to salvation, yes, and by gods grace we are saved, and by faith we are saved, and true faith produces works… do you see the pattern? It is all conclusive.not one or the other. But if it was just belief than you would have to throw out a lot of scripture about the many who won’t enter even after belivig. If it was just grace than everyone would go to heaven because grace is a free gift to all. But you have to chose it. If it was works many false religions would enter and so the pharisees. Do you see the point? The arguments here chose one but ignore the other, but in fact you all are correct. It is a package deal. You have to take all verses into consideration. It is in fact an epidemic that many people confuse gods grace with the go ahead to just keep sinning because he will forgive you. But as a true child of god, we wouldn’t want to. So it is safe to deduct that those who perpetually live in sin do not truly love god or desire for him to do his will, for it says you cannot serve two masters, you cannot produce both fruit and thorns. You either love god or you don’t. So the advice in the scripture is a good one. Examine your fruit to test your salvation . Does your life echo gods love or are you crucifying him day after day?

    • says

      So if you do not have good works, then you will not enter heaven/glorification.

      Therefore, you are making good works a condition for entrance into heaven.

      I appreciate you trying to simplify things for the reader, but in reality, you have added good works as a condition for glorification, which only confuses things.

      • alicia dyson says

        I did not say that at all. Good works is not a condition, but a result of the Holy spirit at work inside you. How do we receive the Holy spirit? Through salvation. How do we receive Salvation? Through belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior that rose again and is God in the flesh. I do not know how you deducted my explanation down to good works is a condition.

      • alicia dyson says

        Also I just have a few scriptures if you could explain the other part of the topic. We all know works cannot save you, the bible is clear on that, but it does seem pretty clear that willfully living in perpetual sin will have a pretty strong consequence… why are we being taught this isn’t so when the bible makes it very clear?

        Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

        If we break this verse down it says: We had a sacrifice for sin. There no longer remains one. Why? Because we lived in deliberate sin after knowing the truth. The punishment will be much more severe for those who trample Jesus’ act of love by dying on the cross, which was much more precious the Moses’ law.. Who is under that new covenant? Those who accept it. Who accepts it? Christians. This clearly isn’t referring to unbelievers. By not taking the Son of God’s sacrifice seriously we anger the spirit of grace. What is Grace? Unmerited favor and God’s awesome power that works through us enabling us to live for Him. People who sinned against Moses’ law died without mercy on just the witness of two or three people, it says here that those who are under the new covenant will receive worse punishment…..

        So please explain how you interpret this verse, because I really cannot make it say anything different that supports deliberate constant sin does not result in severe punishment.

      • Lisa says

        Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”
        Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him who he has sent.” (John 6: 28-29)

        According to Jesus, belief in Himself is the “work” that is necessary for eternal life.
        Our relationship with Him is the “proof” of our eternal life, not the works we do or do not do.

        • says

          Faith is not a “work” as is pretty clear from the rest of Scripture. It is the opposite of works (Cf. Rom 4:4-5).

          Jesus is saying, ‘Oh, you want a work? Ok, here’s the “work” – just believe!” It’s a satirical way of saying that no works are required to gain, keep, or prove eternal life. Faith alone in Christ alone.

        • Lisa says

          I was trying to be satirical as well! It didn’t come through in print. That is why I had “work” in quotation marks. Your paraphrase works much better.

          I believe Jesus is saying in this verse that there is no work, only believing, to gain eternal life.

          If a Lordship Salvation proponent insists there must be good works in order to prove the reality of someone’s salvation, I would refer to this verse in which Jesus says the “work” is to believe. So those who look for works in others’ lives should be looking for belief, not works. Am I making any sense?

        • Lisa says

          I’m just digging in deeper 8-P

          bottom line: I do not believe works earn eternal life for us. I do not believe faith is a work.

        • Alicia Dyson says

          It is not that works is what earns us righteousness, but that proof that the holy spirit is at work within us produces good fruit. Many get it backwards. But like I’ve said a bunch of times, true faith begets true salvation, which then we receive the holy spirit who dwells within us and by his power we are convicted and unable to live in perpetual sin and as long as we allow him to do his will he produces good works or fruit. But if someone belives in Christ not really submitting their selves to him or really meaning it, the holy spirit cannot dwell within him thus not producing fruit or cconvicting them. So that’s how you get false believes who somehow live in perpetual sin and don’t seem to emulate Christ.

  10. alicia dyson says

    This verse also supports what I said that if a person lives in sin, there is reason to doubt they were saved in the first place. So it is not that a pattern of deliberate sinning looses your salvation, but that a person who truly knows Christ won’t live in deliberate sin. This verse lays it out pretty clear.

    1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s[b] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

    • says

      Alicia,

      But 1 John 1:8 says that if we claim we are without sin, we are a liar and the truth is not in us (a double whammy sin!) So whatever 1 John 3:4-10 means, it cannot mean that Christians don’t live in sin. And note that it is not about “deliberate sin” vs. accidental sin. This distinction is not made anywhere in the text and must be read into the verses. If you want to make this distinction in 1 John 3:4-10, then you must also apply it to 1 John 1:8 “Anyone who claims to be without deliberate sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.”

      • Alicia Dyson says

        No its just saying if you say you aren’t a sinner you are a liar. I don’t know what that has to do with proving that perpetual sin is not condemnable.

        • says

          Because almost all sin is perpetual sin. There are very few sins that are one-time events. Also, you cannot define sin as “perpetual sin” in one context, and “regular sin” in the other. So one could read 1 John 1:10 as saying, “If anyone says he does not have perpetual sin, he is a liar.”

  11. alicia dyson says

    Notice in this verse it talks about those of lawlessness, just as the above verses mentioned that those that lived in constant sin were those that practiced lawlessness…

    Matthew 7:13-14
    13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

    Matthew 7:21-27

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

    Luke 13:22-35
    He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’

    If everyone who believed in God and Christ would automatically go to heaven, there would be MANY that would go to heaven. Now this does not in any way say that works earn you a rightful place in heaven, but that many will claim to be saved, know of God but continue to be evil, or get saved just to save their butt and not because they truly love and honor Christ. That is why it is so dangerous to preach that anyone who believes in Christ will have true salvation. If that were true than this verse would be contradicting what you say:

    James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    This verse even further explains what I was saying when I said that the whole Faith/Salvation/Grace/Works is a whole package deal….

    James 2:14
    Faith and Deeds
    14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
    20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
    25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

    Furthermore, the bible also explains that those who are true believers are those that hear God’s word and obey it, thus living in perpetual sin does not show you are a true believer.

    Luke 8:20-21
    And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”

    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    John 14:15
    “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

    Matthew 5:17-20
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 19:16-17
    16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
    17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

    So once again, who causes us to obey? How are we enabled to obey? The Holy spirit who dwells within us after we become saved and is a part of God’s Grace and power:

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    So in conclusion, saying it is ONLY grace that saves us, or ONLY believing that saves us, or ONLY works that saves us is unbiblical. It is a WHOLE package! This is what the Bible clearly teaches us. It is kind of like a car, you can say it is only through the engine that a car is enabled to run, although that is a main component, complex interactions between other parts cause the whole car to work together enabling it to run.

    Only God truly knows our hearts and whether or not a person is truly saved, that is not for us to judge.

  12. Alicia Dyson says

    You know, being rude isn’t necessary. I gave all those verses to back up what I said for those who don’t know where my references are in the scripture. I do that so people can decide for themselves instead of being told by someone what to think. Like I said please explain why the verse says that after knowing the truth and you continue to sin that there no longer remains a sacrifice. And please stop twisting my words into an issue of works. I’ve stated over and over it is not works based. Maybe you are not able to understand what I mean by whole package. If you truly have faith, god will do the rest. But false faith brings about a false salvation and that is how some can live in perpetual sin and not bear fruit. How hard is that to understand? Or are you that prideful you cannot just say thanks for trying to make if clearer?

    • Lisa says

      I am a believer for 28 years but everyday I sin in my thoughts, attitudes, words, and actions.

      Whatever is not from faith is sin (Romans 14:23) – so that probably means there is a whole lot more sin in my life than I even recognize!

      So I would say I am living in perpetual sin.

      Perhaps to say a believer cannot live in perpetual sin is a positional truth, rather than an experiential truth. We are in Christ, and He is in us and somehow in God’s plan, that enables Him to take our sins away by Christ’s work. God lives in eternity and we live in time so that confuses the issue from our perspective.

      Some Christians believe we can achieve sinlessness in this life but I have never met anyone who has.

      • Alicia Dyson says

        Also according to the author, because we have grace I can live in perpetual sin and still remain saved. So that means tomorrow I can go out, murder and rape a few people, set up a asherah pole in my home, make sacrifices to it, lie about the murders, call up my parentsand call them all sorts of nnames, rob a few houses, use the GD word all day, and molest my children and do all of it without repenting because god gave us grace and forgiveness the day we just said we believe in Christ. According to the author, if I did all that without repenting I would still enter heaven….

        • Alicia Dyson says

          But the thing is, a true believer in Christ would never do that and if they did they would feel so miserable and be so convicted they would repent as soon as their pride stepped aside. That is the whole meaning to the verse about how if someone has Christ they cannot sin. It does not mean they physically cannot sin, but that sin is very uncomfortable and they cannot just sin willy nilly without feeling the pain of it.

    • says

      Alicia,

      I am not trying to be rude. I am sorry that my short response seemed rude.

      But here’s the thing: a list of verses proves nothing. I obviously know those verses are there. I have written on a couple of them on this very blog. I simply have different understandings to those verses than you do. Those who tend to just quote verse after verse do not seem to realize that there are different explanations for those verses than the interpretations they personally hold.

      I am all for people knowing the pertinent texts and studying them on their own. What I am not in favor of is people quoting lots of verses and saying, “See? He’s wrong! This verse proves it.” No, that verse doesn’t prove it. Nor do all the other verses that might be quoted. I have studied those verses quite extensively and have come to different conclusions about what they teach.

  13. Alicia Dyson says

    The verse is not talking about just normal human fleshly sin, but decidedly day after day purposeful rebellious sin. Its the difference between me getting angry and saying something I don’t mean where I later repent for my actions as opposed to knowing god hates adultery and having an affair for a year, day after day without repentance. That’s the thing. God is just to forgive us when we repent and forgiveness erases all memory of the transgression but when we live in deliberate rebellious sin, there is no true sorry that leads to godly repentance. I think that is why there is a difference between the two. Jesus did make a sacrifice for our sins, yes, but we still have to repent to be forgiven. The bible makes that pretty clear.

    • SeekerofTruth says

      @ Alicia, DavidNFran, Jeremy,or anyone else that can answer biblically… During my teens I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and to live in me so that I could be born again. I attended a church that teached OSAS. However, during a terrible period (a long season of about 10 years) I wilfully committed many sins believing that I could do those sins, continue to do them, confess them to God and all would be fine since OSAS. Eventhough I knew what I was doing was wrong, I mistakenly thought it was ok.(OSAS). My error was probably due to unbelief, deceitfulness, hypocrisy, not understanding scripture, rebellion, or a combination of all on my part. Therefore, that presents a dilemma… I was 1. Either never saved to begin with even though i thought I was 2. I was saved and the grace of God kept me saved and pulled me through my error 3. I’m eternally lost because of Numbers 15:24-31; Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-31, 2Peter 2:20-22; & 1 John 5:16, 4. I was saved, lost my salvation and regained it. 4. I’m now saved(for the 1st time) because I have truly seen the error of my ways(Need of a Saviour), repented to God, turned from all known sin, and have trusted in Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice as the only means of my salvation. Hebrews presents to me many problems for both the OSAS position and the Armenian position as well. I’ve read on other websites that states a person can be saved, lose their salvation and come back to God numeous times. To me that doesn’t seem to coincide with scripture (Hebrews 6:4-6 “Impossible to renew them to repentance”). So, getting saved more than 1x doesn’t seem correct.(Armenian view). The Calvinistic view seems to disregard the many conditional “ifs” of scripture such as John 15:7, 1 Cor 15:2; 2 Peter1:8. God’s Word doesn’t contradict itself so there must be a misunderstanding of both view points on my end. However, my view regarding eternal security, would be yes and no. I know that sounds contradictory but I will try to explain. You are secure as long as you’re abiding in the Vine(Jesus Christ). However, they is no security if you’re not abiding in the True Vine (Jesus Christ) . There can be no security in sin.
      After reading every comment on this thread, I’m more uncertain as to whether there is any forgiveness left for me as many different positions have been stated. There have been many enlightening and thought provoking replies in this thread. Which makes me realize that I must study the Word of God more so that I can discern his Word and commandments better. Also, It’s been many years since I committed those wilful sins that deceived me into thinking grace gave me a license to sin. I have since earnestly asked God to forgive me, to cleanse me from all iniquity and sin, to give me a clean heart and mind. I truly want to be a child of God and no longer an enemy of Christ. Scripture says to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” and to “Test yourself to see if you’re in the faith”, and “you will know them by their fruit”. I can’t see much fruit in my life, but others have said that they can, and that they have seen a radical change in my life(for the better) and that I must be saved. However, man is not the Judge and only God has the authority to make that decision. One thing is for sure, I can no longer commit sin without feeling so overwhelming guilty. I can no longer commit sin and feel good about it. When I do sin, I feel the need to confess it to God right away for His forgiveness, and ask Him for the strength to overcome that sin. Some have told me that since I feel this way and desire to repent and obey God, then that means that the Holy Spirit is at work in my life and hasn’t abandoned me because I would not even want to obey God without the prompting of the Holy Spirit. One thing that’s disturbing is that some days I feel forgiven and other days I don’t. I know that one cannot go by feelings, but doesn’t Romans 8:16 (The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God”) mean that if one is a true child of God he/she will have confirmation by the Holy Spirit that he/she is a child of God and as such “feel” saved?

      • alicia dyson says

        Seeker- First let me state that no one can judge whether or not you were truly saved in your teens. Only God knows your heart. The good thing is that you see you error and you know what you did wasn’t right. That right there is proof that the Holy spirit is working inside you. Conviction comes from Him and only Him… so it is a good thing. On the other side, it seems to me the devil has and is trying to get you caught up in shame or guilt. That is called condemnation. That is never from God. He wants you to stay in a state of low self esteem so at some point you shrink and hide from God. Remember back to Adam and Eve? God asked them when they hid, “Who told you that you were naked?” He knew the devil was the culprit, just as now he is trying to tell you lies that when you repent it is not good enough. How do we know that is a lie? Well anything that does not line up with scripture is a lie. So what does the Bible say about repentance?

        Look up these verses- Luke 15:7, 1 John 1:5-10

        2 Corinthians 7:9-11
        As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. >>>>For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret,<<<< whereas worldly grief produces death. For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.

        So God promises, He will always forgive us if we repent with true repentance. No other conditions. Since you did repent with a real sorrow, He has now forgiven you. But does that mean now he has forgiven you, you don't need to repent again? No. So the once saved always saved contradicts this. If you are saved regardless, what would be the point of repenting? Why would the Bible command it over and over?

        Jeremy made a point that there was no sacrifice for willful sin in the old testament. Only for accidental or ignorant sin. The result of willful sinning was certain death. Now the Bible says that God is never changing. So let's explore this. Hebrews 10 thoroughly explains the new covenant. The scriptures say, Jesus didn't come to do away with the law, but fulfill it(Matthew 5:17). It says that not a word will disappear from the law till the end(Matthew 5:18). So how did Jesus fulfill it? He became the most pure, blameless, undefiled sacrifice for our sins. So instead of needing to sacrifice animals and do all these rituals, we have Christ who is the sacrifice, and since he is alive for all eternity, we don't need new ones. Same as He became a high priest, perfect and sinless so that He doesn't have to make an atonement for his sins and once again, he is forever alive so that there is no need for another priest. What did High priests do? They were the ones who made atonement for sins and interceded between us and God. No one could come to God without the High priest. But now that Christ is the High priest, He can now intercede for us on our behalf (Hebrews 4:15). So here's where it gets good… When we truly repent and belive in him, he comes to dwell within us(Acts 2:38). Now when we sin and we repent, He cries out from within us, interceding for us on our behalf for the forgiveness of our sins(Romans 8:26).

        So if God is never changing, and all that was FULFILLED was sacrifices and high priests, then why do we think he also did away with the idea of repentance and the consequences that come from unrepentance? So in the old testament, what happened when someone did not repent for their sins? They would surely die and didn't have salvation. Now does it say anywhere Jesus came to fulfill or abolish the need for repentance? No, just that He intercedes so that we can boldly ask for forgiveness from God anytime we sin(Hebrews 4:16). Now it says Jesus died so that we may be forgiven, but does it say anywhere He died so that He can repent on our behalf? No. Do you see where I'm getting at?

        So in the old Testament, you would realize you sinned, go to the High Preist (Jesus), offer the prescribed sacrifice (Jesus's Death on the cross) and repent (?), and then you would be cleansed from sin and be able to have salvation. So if there is no substitute for repentance as a part of the equation from being cleansed, then why is it a surprise that unrepentance can bring you to a consequence of not having the salvation that was given to you? God is never changing. Over and over it was not because of their sins that people were destroyed but their hardened hearts and lack of repentance. Essentially that is also what pride was. Why would that be the constant theme, God telling people over and over to repent, even believers or else they will be destroyed or die? Even so, He declared if they would just turn and repent He would take them back, forget their sins, and restore them to Him. So why do we think He has changed?

        He hasn't. He just loved us so much He offered His one and only Son to now pay the price for our sins, but we still have to repent.

        So, working backwards- What brings death? Sin. How does sin remain in our life? unrepentance or lack of salvation. How are we able to repent or have salvation? Through Jesus Christ our savior.

        People say it is by grace we have been saved. True. But does it say "by grace ONLY"? No. In fact there seems to be a few things that the bible says we have been saved by… Jesus(Romans 5:9), grace and faith,(Ephesians 2:8) believing (mark 16:16), confessing that Jesus is Lord and believing Jesus was raised from the dead by God(Romans 10:9), Love God and your Neighbor (Luke 10:25-28), repentance(2 Corinthians 7:10), baptism(1 Peter 3:21), Endurance (Matthew 24:13), works (which is best described as actions and not good deeds)(James 2:24) and obeying(Matthew 7:21). So why is it that we choose the one that easiest and ignore the rest?

        Also Grace is often used in the new testament, not as an attribute of God, but a constant state of action. Meaning, grace can be easily understood as His power or Spirit. In fact I challange you to read the parts where grace is described and substitue grace for power and spirit and it would make a lot more sense. For example- Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people". Of course it is by His spirit and power we have been saved! (Titus 3:5) He sent Jesus (His spirit), who then died and enabled us to be filled with the holy spirit (His Spirit) who then gives us the POWER to bear fruit, be convicted, repent, obey, love ect. So as you can see, like I said before, it is not grace alone, but a hole kit and kaboodle!

        Again, it says by faith we are saved. But James 2:14-26 Says faith without works is dead. So what exactly is works? Well it is action. Obedience is action. That is why there are many verses talking about how you should not just hear the word but do it (James 1:22-27)… So he is not necessarily talking about doing things to look good, but obeying what god asks us. That is also why it says by their fruits you will know His children(Matthew 6:17), because they live in obedience, their life will reflect that. So once again, it is by God's grace(power, spirit-Jesus and Holy spirit, and unmerited favor) we are saved, through faith, which is dead without works, which are evident the holy spirit is in us, which is proof you are saved…. It comes around full circle. It is woven together beautifully to make a cord no one can break.

        The wrench in all this, is God graciously gives you all this as a gift, but since we have free will, we have to choose to accept it. We can choose to allow Him to do HIS WILL. We can choose to obey Him. We choose to forgive. We can choose to repent. We can choose to love and to sin…. He will never force salvation on us.(Romans 2:4) Without repentance, obedience or forgiveness, there is no cleansing, there is no valid sacrifice, there is no salvation. These verses make that blatantly clear: Ezekiel 33:10-20, Romans 6:15-19, Matthew 18:21-35, Hebrews 12:12-17, Hebrews 10:16-26, James 2:14-26, Romans 2:1-16, Titus 3:1-11, Hebrews 4:1-8, And the letters to the churches in Revelation is talking about the different type of Believers, it is a warning to turn and repent, to do the works we first did. Notice the faithful are rewarded by being kept from the hour of trial (End times, or more specifically the day of the Lord's wrath) Revelation 2:1-7, 18-23, Revelation 3:1-5, 14-21

        But God knows we are weak. He knows we will make mistakes, that is why He is patient with us and is slow to anger. "2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." Even if we turn away but come back with repentance, it says He can restore us, so I see no biblical basis for never being able to be redeemed again(Romans 11:23) (unless it is blasphemy against the Holy spirit(Mark 3:29), but that's a whole nother topic…)

        So the difference between willful sinning and just sinning out of being a sinful man, is that willful sinning usually keeps a person in a state of unrepentance, and sinning because that's just what we do, results in true repentance if we are filled with the holy spirit that convicts us to do so. We all sin, that's a fact. But whether we choose to stay in it comes down to our free will.

        See it isn't about the type of sin that "looses" salvation, or not doing works that make you good enough, or that you should constantly wonder if you are pleasing God enough, but that repentance is a part of salvation. But the good news is, if you really are a true believer, you will always desire to repent, and God is gracious enough to show you your error and correct you so that you may walk in salvation…. "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret"

      • says

        I am not sure if this will answer all your questions, but the bottom line is that knowing whether or not you have eternal life has nothing whatsoever to do with what you do (or don’t do) or how you feel (or don’t feel).

        Our eternal life is based solely and completely on the promises of Jesus Christ. If you believe in Jesus for His promise of eternal life, then you have eternal life. He promises it! (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47, etc).

        • Alicia Dyson says

          I think the whole book of romans is a great book to read about faith and grace :) Jeremy, I am sure I may frustrate you at times, but just understand all this interaction is growing me. God is gracious and he gives wisdom to those who seek it. I honestly believe you are right, but that some points I have made are right too. After reading romans, I feel very clear that it is by grace we are saved, but I do also still believe that scripture teaches that a real believer abides in grace and that there can be those never saved to begin with. I also still believed it is a whole package, but not by any of your own doing, but by gods power. Anyways, thanks for inspiring me to learn the word even more… maybe my mind will change on some matters, god knows my heart and I am sure he would not want me left in the dark.

  14. anthony says

    Hi Want To Know what Hebrew 12:17 Mean about Not To sell Your Birthright i Read it But Im Confuse Because I want to Repent from all my Sin But This Confuse me

    • Alicia Dyson says

      He basically gave up something very precious for something so insignificant. So when it came time to inherit what was rightfully his, he could not have it because he gave it up. Because he never repented before that final day, he forever lost what he had wasted. Asa rresult, he was in anguish over it because he could never have it. I personally feel this is a representation either of those who received salvation and threw it away for insignificant satisfaction (fleshly desires) or those that could have received salvation and traded it for a life of sin. Then it describes the day in the end when everyone receives their inheritance (the kingdom of god and eternal life) and those that traded salvation for sin found out they couldn’t get their inheritance back. Even though they may cry and wail, they never repented before that day came. I wouldn’t worry too much.. if you desire to repent, that’s awesome! God knows your heart and he will forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. Just have faith in him, faith that he will forgive you. Like I mentioned above, he is very patient so that we may come to him in repentance. He won’t just discard you the moment you sin. Read the book of romans for encouragement.

      • anthony says

        Thank You Replying I Commit Lots of sin when i Struggling I want to serve God By Doing his will But I Have hard Time Doing It I Hope he will Help Me Any Time Soon But I Hope I Will Respond to Him There a lot of Bible Verse That Scare me I Believe That God Will Saved Any One IF They Truly Want to Be Saved I Want to Be Saved I Did Accept Jesus Christ As My Lord And Savior i HOPE I Did it in Faith Because i Keep Doubting Because my Double mind and James Mention This

        • Alicia Dyson says

          The thing is Anthony, you can’t do it. That’s the point. That’s why we need God! It is a great place to realize you are unable to do it on your own. Then you can really reach out for God and ask him to his will. When I struggle (which I do everyday) I just tell god I can’t do it and I ask him to live through me and use his power to change me. God understands your heart. Screwing up is not what upsets god. Really take that to heart. He knows sin is difficult to resist. He too was tempted so he could understand our struggles. Understand the devil wants you to feel not good enough. He wants you to worry and have fear. If you didn’t wonder or didn’t feel bad about your sin, that’s when I would start to worry. But obviously you do. I think that throughout your life you have had people tell you that you weren’t good enough, people put you down, people didn’t validate you. But that’s not God. He loves you so much and knew all the mistakes you would make before you even make them. At no point is he ashamed or angry with you. He instead is patient, working out all your imperfections in his due time. Just trust him and realize he won’t forsake you even if you doubt. The bible has a lot of do’s and donts but you musnt worry that you haven’t done them all perfectly. That’s the holy spirits jjob, to do his will and grow good fruit. Not yours. All you need to do is just make sure you submit to him and obey him when he convicts your heart. If you screw up just confess it to god and know his mercies are new everyday. He will be just to forgive you.

  15. SeekerofTruth says

    Thanks for all the above replies to my query. Another verse that is puzzling to me is 1 Timothy 1:13. Is this verse saying that Paul was forgiven only because he sinned ignorantly and if he sinned knowingly he wouldn’t have been forgiven? Seems like this verse parallels and supports Numbers 15:22-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31.

    • Alicia Dyson says

      I really think unless it really comes out there and says it without a doubt, then I wouldn’t draw any hefty conclusions from it. I think he is just describing why he did what he did. Which everything he did was not with malicious intent, he really thought he was doing gods will, but he was ignorant of the truth. He uses this as an example of the greatness of gods grace, not a reason why god hhad grace on him. The bible says that it is better for the man who had never known the truth than the one who had. God has a lot of mercy on those who have never known his love.

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