Comments on: Imagine and Reimagine http://www.tillhecomes.org/imagine-and-reimagine/ Bringing Scripture and Theology to Life Fri, 18 May 2012 12:08:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Mike Ellis Church for Men http://www.tillhecomes.org/imagine-and-reimagine/#comment-1173 Mike Ellis Church for Men Fri, 01 Aug 2008 05:45:26 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=381#comment-1173 Hello my friend. Where can we hear the entire sermon via audio? Hello my friend. Where can we hear the entire sermon via audio?

]]> By: Reimagining Church | TILL HE COMES Blog http://www.tillhecomes.org/imagine-and-reimagine/#comment-1172 Reimagining Church | TILL HE COMES Blog Sun, 27 Jul 2008 00:46:44 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=381#comment-1172 [...] Living life on mission « Imagine and Reimagine [...] [...] Living life on mission « Imagine and Reimagine [...]

]]> By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/imagine-and-reimagine/#comment-1171 Jeremy Myers Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:53:31 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=381#comment-1171 MarkR, You make good points. The bottom line for me is that I want to be part of a church that: 1. teaches the truth of Scripture 2. effectively loves and reaches out to people who are not "Christians" Generally, churches do one or the other of these quite well. It is a rare church that can do both well. Some get too far off into the dangers of postmodernism, while others are still stuck in the traps of modernism. Mosaic still has lots of things to figure out (as do we all) about how best to remain faithful to the truth while living with others in love. But overall, it seems they are trying to find that balance between truth and love. MarkR,

You make good points.

The bottom line for me is that I want to be part of a church that:

1. teaches the truth of Scripture
2. effectively loves and reaches out to people who are not “Christians”

Generally, churches do one or the other of these quite well. It is a rare church that can do both well. Some get too far off into the dangers of postmodernism, while others are still stuck in the traps of modernism.

Mosaic still has lots of things to figure out (as do we all) about how best to remain faithful to the truth while living with others in love. But overall, it seems they are trying to find that balance between truth and love.

]]> By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/imagine-and-reimagine/#comment-1170 Jeremy Myers Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:46:30 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=381#comment-1170 Peter, Though I don't want to put words in his mouth, I think Stephen would put it almost exactly as you have put it. Peter,

Though I don’t want to put words in his mouth, I think Stephen would put it almost exactly as you have put it.

]]> By: MarkR http://www.tillhecomes.org/imagine-and-reimagine/#comment-1169 MarkR Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:19:38 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=381#comment-1169 I have to say this, and I don't want to. This stuff concerns me. The world never has and never will be what this pastor speaks of. I believe the problem is one of mixing apples and oranges. Becoming friends with unbelievers is essential and I do have Mormon, atheist and other types of friends. Telling the truth however is MORE of a problem than becoming friends with others. I do think there is a problem in the church and if its in the church its unfortunately in the culture. Its post modernism the idea that truth is not relative but non existent. This problem permeates churches and society as a whole. The answer is -"The truth in love". Becoming friends is more than emotionalism- its connection on a deep level and this takes time and committment. I think we all fail here at times- some(me) more than others. I believe the problem in the church IS NOT the way unbelievers are treated (though that may at times be a problem). I believe its the way BELIEVERS are treated.(Jesus said we would be noted by the way WE loved EACH OTHER not non Christians-though that would flow from that) I have seen more believers WOUNDED by their own churches- particularly those with problems they have had since before they were Christians.(I personally got more emotional help in twelve step groups and therapy). The Lordship controvery, the lack of understanding of the true Gospel and myriad other theological issues, along with a sin busting vs. a grace enhancing view of sanctification (not toleration of sin but a proper motivation for serving Christ). have been bigger issues. The unbeliever in churches I have frequented too often hear LESS of the truth (I heard the truth of my spiritual condition and was convicted when I went to church as an unbeliever) and too much effort is made NOT to offend. I am sorry, maybe I am or have been going to the wrong churches, but I see problems almost the reverse of this pastor. And lastly- Mormons ARE more OUTWARDLY moral than many Christians- SORRY BUT SO WHAT! Hate to put it that way, but that isn't what Christianity is about. The Pharisees were more outwardly moral than others and used it as a bludgeon. Now please don't go the opposite way and see this is an excuse for sinning- NO WAY! Because sin was dealt with at the cross we are free ! FREEDOM IS THE KEY! Sin enslaves, but its sinful to the utmost to walk around with the idea that my religiosity is pleasing to God. Sure we can always learn something from others- anyone- but its a real stretch to see people walk around in their own self-righteousness and that being looked kindly upon. This is a long post- but reading more of what you say- maybe I am jumping the gun- however I get concerned when I hear how non-christians get offended- that bothers me when I see the lack of effective teaching and loving needed by believers who then can be able to win souls for Christ outside the church. If I am being too harsh I apologize. This is just so deep with me. I have to say this, and I don’t want to. This stuff concerns me. The world never has and never will be what this pastor speaks of. I believe the problem is one of mixing apples and oranges. Becoming friends with unbelievers is essential and I do have Mormon, atheist and other types of friends. Telling the truth however is MORE of a problem than becoming friends with others. I do think there is a problem in the church and if its in the church its unfortunately in the culture. Its post modernism the idea that truth is not relative but non existent. This problem permeates churches and society as a whole. The answer is -”The truth in love”. Becoming friends is more than emotionalism- its connection on a deep level and this takes time and committment. I think we all fail here at times- some(me) more than others. I believe the problem in the church IS NOT the way unbelievers are treated (though that may at times be a problem). I believe its the way BELIEVERS are treated.(Jesus said we would be noted by the way WE loved EACH OTHER not non Christians-though that would flow from that) I have seen more believers WOUNDED by their own churches- particularly those with problems they have had since before they were Christians.(I personally got more emotional help in twelve step groups and therapy). The Lordship controvery, the lack of understanding of the true Gospel and myriad other theological issues, along with a sin busting vs. a grace enhancing view of sanctification (not toleration of sin but a proper motivation for serving Christ). have been bigger issues. The unbeliever in churches I have frequented too often hear LESS of the truth (I heard the truth of my spiritual condition and was convicted when I went to church as an unbeliever) and too much effort is made NOT to offend. I am sorry, maybe I am or have been going to the wrong churches, but I see problems almost the reverse of this pastor. And lastly- Mormons ARE more OUTWARDLY moral than many Christians- SORRY BUT SO WHAT! Hate to put it that way, but that isn’t what Christianity is about. The Pharisees were more outwardly moral than others and used it as a bludgeon. Now please don’t go the opposite way and see this is an excuse for sinning- NO WAY! Because sin was dealt with at the cross we are free ! FREEDOM IS THE KEY! Sin enslaves, but its sinful to the utmost to walk around with the idea that my religiosity is pleasing to God. Sure we can always learn something from others- anyone- but its a real stretch to see people walk around in their own self-righteousness and that being looked kindly upon. This is a long post- but reading more of what you say- maybe I am jumping the gun- however I get concerned when I hear how non-christians get offended- that bothers me when I see the lack of effective teaching and loving needed by believers who then can be able to win souls for Christ outside the church. If I am being too harsh I apologize. This is just so deep with me.

]]> By: Peter Kirk http://www.tillhecomes.org/imagine-and-reimagine/#comment-1168 Peter Kirk Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:01:35 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=381#comment-1168 Great quote. But would he have, or did he, add "regardless of sexual orientation"? I say this as one who clearly believes that any sexual activity outside heterosexual marriage is wrong. But I also say that people who choose other lifestyles, heterosexual or homosexual, should be accepted, just as atheists and libertarians are accepted, in the hope that they will come to faith in Jesus which will presumably involve repentance. Would your pastor dare to say this? Great quote. But would he have, or did he, add “regardless of sexual orientation”? I say this as one who clearly believes that any sexual activity outside heterosexual marriage is wrong. But I also say that people who choose other lifestyles, heterosexual or homosexual, should be accepted, just as atheists and libertarians are accepted, in the hope that they will come to faith in Jesus which will presumably involve repentance. Would your pastor dare to say this?

]]> By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/imagine-and-reimagine/#comment-1167 Jeremy Myers Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:25:44 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=381#comment-1167 I received the following e-mail from a concerned reader today. I imagine other readers might share similar concerns, so I will post it here (anonymously for now): <blockquote>Sorry Jeremy but this sounds like utter non-sense to me... When would an Athiest ever say " I forgive you as God has forgiven me"... I think that what this pastor wishes for isn't what God is really after. Nothing close will ever happen until God steps back into history and brings His kingdom about where the foolishness of man and evil will be punished and everyone will know the truth. He will reign in perfect justice, righteousness and grace. Anything less in this fallen world is merely vain speculation and a pipe dream because like it or not there is real evil in the heart and mind of man and it permeates everything around us - even in the church. Liberals generally are for the killing of babies and other horendous ideas that war against the sanctity and liberty of human beings... Giving men with this kind of a world view "equal time" isn't what I think God desires. I think He expects us to oppose the garbage in our culture and make a difference by standing for what is right. It may be hard work and unpleasant at times but it's what is right. We have far too many who aren't willing to stand for what is right and oppose what is wrong in our society and culture... This pastors "vision" sounds too much like the world John Lennon wrote about in his song "imagine" where there is no God and "no religion". In such a world it would make sense to capitulate to "our athiest friends..." You've really lost me on this one. Sounds like ecumenicism taken to the next extreme...</blockquote> Here was my reply: <blockquote>I understand your concern, but I think if you listened to the entire message, you may get a fuller picture of what Stephen was saying. My short quote from his sermon does not do justice to the kind of church he imagines. On a related note, are you friends with any atheists, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, or other people you might disagree with theologically? I am, and am discovering that many of them behave more "Christ-like" than many Christians I know. Many of them are more forgiving, generous, caring, kind, loving, etc. In this sense, we can learn a lot from those who have not yet believed in Jesus, and if they see us asking them to help us in such ways, they will be more open to hearing what we have to say about believing in Jesus for eternal life. I have seen this in action at Mosaic where I now attend. People who would never attend a typical church are attending here, and are coming to faith in Jesus. Also, people who do not behave "Christ-like" see the love and acceptance that we show others (even those who disagree with us), and feel like they can check us out as well if they want to. Personally, I have never before been part of a church that is as effective as Mosaic at loving the people that most of us Christians are content to ignore, judge, condemn, and criticize. </blockquote> What do you think about all of this? Also, how are you and your church doing at reaching people in your community? I received the following e-mail from a concerned reader today. I imagine other readers might share similar concerns, so I will post it here (anonymously for now):

Sorry Jeremy but this sounds like utter non-sense to me… When would an Athiest ever say ” I forgive you as God has forgiven me”… I think that what this pastor wishes for isn’t what God is really after. Nothing close will ever happen until God steps back into history and brings His kingdom about where the foolishness of man and evil will be punished and everyone will know the truth. He will reign in perfect justice, righteousness and grace. Anything less in this fallen world is merely vain speculation and a pipe dream because like it or not there is real evil in the heart and mind of man and it permeates everything around us – even in the church. Liberals generally are for the killing of babies and other horendous ideas that war against the sanctity and liberty of human beings… Giving men with this kind of a world view “equal time” isn’t what I think God desires. I think He expects us to oppose the garbage in our culture and make a difference by standing for what is right. It may be hard work and unpleasant at times but it’s what is right. We have far too many who aren’t willing to stand for what is right and oppose what is wrong in our society and culture… This pastors “vision” sounds too much like the world John Lennon wrote about in his song “imagine” where there is no God and “no religion”. In such a world it would make sense to capitulate to “our athiest friends…”

You’ve really lost me on this one. Sounds like ecumenicism taken to the next extreme…

Here was my reply:

I understand your concern, but I think if you listened to the entire message, you may get a fuller picture of what Stephen was saying. My short quote from his sermon does not do justice to the kind of church he imagines.

On a related note, are you friends with any atheists, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, or other people you might disagree with theologically? I am, and am discovering that many of them behave more “Christ-like” than many Christians I know. Many of them are more forgiving, generous, caring, kind, loving, etc. In this sense, we can learn a lot from those who have not yet believed in Jesus, and if they see us asking them to help us in such ways, they will be more open to hearing what we have to say about believing in Jesus for eternal life. I have seen this in action at Mosaic where I now attend. People who would never attend a typical church are attending here, and are coming to faith in Jesus. Also, people who do not behave “Christ-like” see the love and acceptance that we show others (even those who disagree with us), and feel like they can check us out as well if they want to. Personally, I have never before been part of a church that is as effective as Mosaic at loving the people that most of us Christians are content to ignore, judge, condemn, and criticize.

What do you think about all of this? Also, how are you and your church doing at reaching people in your community?

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