Comments on: Dirtbags…Not for the girly-man http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/ Bringing Scripture and Theology to Life Wed, 08 Feb 2012 15:46:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-9232 Jeremy Myers Sun, 04 Dec 2011 14:30:01 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-9232 Jim, Hello! I think the Emerging Church is asking some great questions and raising some great issues, but I don't think they have offered some good answers. I believe that all churches should at least hear the questions and try to find ways to answer them from sound biblical theology and through good church practices. Some of the best questions and issues they have raised are in the areas of the Mission of God, the Kingdom of God, and how to reach those who do not "fit" within the traditional models of church. Jim,
Hello!

I think the Emerging Church is asking some great questions and raising some great issues, but I don’t think they have offered some good answers. I believe that all churches should at least hear the questions and try to find ways to answer them from sound biblical theology and through good church practices. Some of the best questions and issues they have raised are in the areas of the Mission of God, the Kingdom of God, and how to reach those who do not “fit” within the traditional models of church.

]]> By: Jeremy Myers on Facebook http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-9266 Jeremy Myers on Facebook Sun, 04 Dec 2011 01:53:32 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-9266 Sophia, I understand your concern. The term "Girly Man" is of course, a reference to a 1980's Saturday Night Live skit by Arnold Swarzenegger, but it is definitely not a slam on girls, any more than calling a girl a "Tomboy" is a slam on boys. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with more effeminate guys, just as there is not necessarily anything wrong with more masculine women. The important thing is being true to who God made you. However, there are certain activities that a "manly man" likes to be involved with, and there are certain activities that an effeminate man likes to be involved with, and the two worlds usually do not meet. This Bible study in Montana is not for all men. It is for the rugged, individual man who wouldn't be caught dead in a typical church. I am of the persuasion that we need all kinds of churches to meet all kinds of people. Here is a group in Montana that is teaching the Bible and bringing the gospel to a particular group which is notoriously difficult to reach. I say "Bravo!" And the same goes for a church with crying men, trans-genders, and hermaphrodites. I say "Bravo!" But we must not say that crying men and trans-genders should have churches while rugged, individualistic men should not. Sophia,

I understand your concern. The term “Girly Man” is of course, a reference to a 1980′s Saturday Night Live skit by Arnold Swarzenegger, but it is definitely not a slam on girls, any more than calling a girl a “Tomboy” is a slam on boys.

I don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with more effeminate guys, just as there is not necessarily anything wrong with more masculine women. The important thing is being true to who God made you.

However, there are certain activities that a “manly man” likes to be involved with, and there are certain activities that an effeminate man likes to be involved with, and the two worlds usually do not meet. This Bible study in Montana is not for all men. It is for the rugged, individual man who wouldn’t be caught dead in a typical church.

I am of the persuasion that we need all kinds of churches to meet all kinds of people. Here is a group in Montana that is teaching the Bible and bringing the gospel to a particular group which is notoriously difficult to reach. I say “Bravo!”

And the same goes for a church with crying men, trans-genders, and hermaphrodites. I say “Bravo!”

But we must not say that crying men and trans-genders should have churches while rugged, individualistic men should not.

]]> By: Sofia Larsson on Facebook http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-9265 Sofia Larsson on Facebook Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:54:47 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-9265 Dear Jeremy, I read this article and please go with me as I lay out the logic, or the lack of logic in this text. (Forgive me for criticizing but I take one big leap of faith that you will be more interested in discussing the logic behind ideas than to get hurt by me opposing this..maybe I'm wrong, but I hope not and I will have faith in your intelligence). First of all, it's deeply offensive that a "girly"-man is considered to be something cornier and less cool than a manly man. Girls are in fact equally cool as boys. But that use of language implies that being a girl is not cool for a real man, and that any man that is a girly-man is of less value and less real. It might seem to be minor for us adults, but it's devastating for any little girl thinking about her own place in the creation and how God is valuing her. And it will follow her self-esteem for the rest of her life. And it creates contempt in small little boys, who go from cutelycomplaining about having to be with a girl in class because she has girly-bacterias until he gets older and thinks she deserves that slap in the face. The reason why both men and women are deadly tired of church is that, just like you imply in your article, it is full of self-sufficient judging and hypocritical people. Everyone who is not run by fear wants something genuine and real. Also, there is nothing wrong with being sexually aroused by naked men or women, the disturbing thing with the unequal power of division (or lack of division) of power in society produces systems where women continuously lessened, by objectification (more than) men. 80% of women in the porno-industry have been molested as children. This is the result of a perverted power structure. Broken people let themselves be broken over and over. And to justify the tendencies of a perpetrator's system because he is a man and just has some needs, is wrong. Because it is selfish, - at the expense of somebody else. Otherwise both men and women equally love sex, and lots of heterosexual women love a picture of a nice male ass. Give me a church for women where there are nude pictures of men and the female Pastor says "Damn it" and the visitors are still in their benches, not praying for her but for themselves. Where men cry and are considered cool and strong for showing their feelings. Or where it is recognized that God actually by nature didn't really create men and women, but men, women, transvestites, trans-genders, hermaphrodites. A society and churches that have stopped forcing people to confess to one of the two gender groups. Now, that's a Godly revolution. Dear Jeremy, I read this article and please go with me as I lay out the logic, or the lack of logic in this text. (Forgive me for criticizing but I take one big leap of faith that you will be more interested in discussing the logic behind ideas than to get hurt by me opposing this..maybe I’m wrong, but I hope not and I will have faith in your intelligence). First of all, it’s deeply offensive that a “girly”-man is considered to be something cornier and less cool than a manly man. Girls are in fact equally cool as boys. But that use of language implies that being a girl is not cool for a real man, and that any man that is a girly-man is of less value and less real. It might seem to be minor for us adults, but it’s devastating for any little girl thinking about her own place in the creation and how God is valuing her. And it will follow her self-esteem for the rest of her life. And it creates contempt in small little boys, who go from cutelycomplaining about having to be with a girl in class because she has girly-bacterias until he gets older and thinks she deserves that slap in the face. The reason why both men and women are deadly tired of church is that, just like you imply in your article, it is full of self-sufficient judging and hypocritical people. Everyone who is not run by fear wants something genuine and real. Also, there is nothing wrong with being sexually aroused by naked men or women, the disturbing thing with the unequal power of division (or lack of division) of power in society produces systems where women continuously lessened, by objectification (more than) men. 80% of women in the porno-industry have been molested as children. This is the result of a perverted power structure. Broken people let themselves be broken over and over. And to justify the tendencies of a perpetrator’s system because he is a man and just has some needs, is wrong. Because it is selfish, – at the expense of somebody else. Otherwise both men and women equally love sex, and lots of heterosexual women love a picture of a nice male ass. Give me a church for women where there are nude pictures of men and the female Pastor says “Damn it” and the visitors are still in their benches, not praying for her but for themselves. Where men cry and are considered cool and strong for showing their feelings. Or where it is recognized that God actually by nature didn’t really create men and women, but men, women, transvestites, trans-genders, hermaphrodites. A society and churches that have stopped forcing people to confess to one of the two gender groups. Now, that’s a Godly revolution.

]]> By: Jim Howard http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-9192 Jim Howard Sat, 03 Dec 2011 03:11:47 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-9192 Hey, Jeremy, I enjoy reading your musings from time to time. This interchange has been interesting. How have your thoughts about the emergent church developed since 2007? Hey, Jeremy, I enjoy reading your musings from time to time. This interchange has been interesting. How have your thoughts about the emergent church developed since 2007?

]]> By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-9186 Jeremy Myers Sat, 03 Dec 2011 01:16:27 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-9186 Pat, Thank you for the inside scoop. I work with a lot of guys who would show up at something like this in a heartbeat, but would never darken the door of a typical church. Your last statement (from Jesus) is right on target: ...go to the highways and hedges... Thanks! Pat,

Thank you for the inside scoop. I work with a lot of guys who would show up at something like this in a heartbeat, but would never darken the door of a typical church.

Your last statement (from Jesus) is right on target: …go to the highways and hedges…

Thanks!

]]> By: Pat Fitzpatrick http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-9184 Pat Fitzpatrick Sat, 03 Dec 2011 00:24:15 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-9184 Perhaps I can be of assistance here; I've been to a few of these meetings. My bona fides: I've been a Christian for 25 years, I've been to churches all over the world, and have done street ministry, and gone to many maximum security prisons to visit with men to share the Gospel. I attend the dirtbag meetings whenever I go home to visit. As a 3 time attendee, I am no longer introduced as a guest, and I agree with most of what was described in the original post-with a few caveats. First: The main reason this is held in a bar, (it was really a casino, and is now held in a bowling alley) is because there really is not much room anywhere else in town. And the bar/casino/bowling alley is never open during these meetings. Keep in mind that these bible studies occur at 7:00 and 8:00 on Friday mornings. Men have to get out of bed early to attend before work and school. This is in Bigfork, Montana too; it gets cold, and they still come. Second: don't focus on the "bikini girl" thing. The men who attend certainly don't. Third: Think of where you were when Jesus Christ first reached out to you. Be careful of harsh judgment when you consider that many of the men who come to hear the Gospel at 7:00 AM would probably not have simply wandered to church on their own. Look at the "public" face of the church now. As an outside non-believing observer, would you trust anybody professing to be a christian? I belong to a regular church and I know that the fellowship of other believers is a critical component of Christianity. But at the same time, I'm a little disheartened when I visit these gigantic warehouses full of lukewarm, part-time Christians. The off-color jokes? Pretty tame stuff, really. Resist the urge to label Creamer as someone that compromises the message. He gives his audience what they can receive. While you and I may tolerate a stronger diet, Creamer reaches people who would otherwise not hear. Most importantly, his goal is to get them to a group of believers so they can continue to grow. Thanks, only my two cents. "...Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in". Perhaps I can be of assistance here; I’ve been to a few of these meetings. My bona fides: I’ve been a Christian for 25 years, I’ve been to churches all over the world, and have done street ministry, and gone to many maximum security prisons to visit with men to share the Gospel. I attend the dirtbag meetings whenever I go home to visit. As a 3 time attendee, I am no longer introduced as a guest, and I agree with most of what was described in the original post-with a few caveats. First: The main reason this is held in a bar, (it was really a casino, and is now held in a bowling alley) is because there really is not much room anywhere else in town. And the bar/casino/bowling alley is never open during these meetings. Keep in mind that these bible studies occur at 7:00 and 8:00 on Friday mornings. Men have to get out of bed early to attend before work and school. This is in Bigfork, Montana too; it gets cold, and they still come. Second: don’t focus on the “bikini girl” thing. The men who attend certainly don’t. Third: Think of where you were when Jesus Christ first reached out to you. Be careful of harsh judgment when you consider that many of the men who come to hear the Gospel at 7:00 AM would probably not have simply wandered to church on their own. Look at the “public” face of the church now. As an outside non-believing observer, would you trust anybody professing to be a christian? I belong to a regular church and I know that the fellowship of other believers is a critical component of Christianity. But at the same time, I’m a little disheartened when I visit these gigantic warehouses full of lukewarm, part-time Christians. The off-color jokes? Pretty tame stuff, really. Resist the urge to label Creamer as someone that compromises the message. He gives his audience what they can receive. While you and I may tolerate a stronger diet, Creamer reaches people who would otherwise not hear. Most importantly, his goal is to get them to a group of believers so they can continue to grow.
Thanks, only my two cents.
“…Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in”.

]]> By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-6865 Jeremy Myers Sun, 02 Oct 2011 13:17:23 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-6865 Larry, It's nice of you to judge and condemn this man to eternal hell, even though you have never met him, never talked to him, and have never seen what he is doing. Sadly, if you are right, then all of us are damned. Larry,
It’s nice of you to judge and condemn this man to eternal hell, even though you have never met him, never talked to him, and have never seen what he is doing.

Sadly, if you are right, then all of us are damned.

]]> By: Larry Jones http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-6859 Larry Jones Sun, 02 Oct 2011 11:43:25 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-6859 What are you reaching them for? Obviously not to lead them away from sin. What is left to repent of if we close our eyes to profanity, lust, drunkeness, pride (I'm a man's man), and general worldly presence? We are saved from this world. Preaching a salvation that requires no change will damn the listener. I imagine the blood of these men will be on this teacher's hands. What are you reaching them for? Obviously not to lead them away from sin. What is left to repent of if we close our eyes to profanity, lust, drunkeness, pride (I’m a man’s man), and general worldly presence? We are saved from this world. Preaching a salvation that requires no change will damn the listener. I imagine the blood of these men will be on this teacher’s hands.

]]> By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-6707 Jeremy Myers Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:54:50 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-6707 Matt, You make some good points. Thanks for weighing in. I had some of the same thoughts when I went, but on the other hand, he was reaching some guys who would never darken the door of any church. This was definitely NOT a Bible study for church-going men. Matt,
You make some good points. Thanks for weighing in. I had some of the same thoughts when I went, but on the other hand, he was reaching some guys who would never darken the door of any church. This was definitely NOT a Bible study for church-going men.

]]> By: Matthew Aznoe http://www.tillhecomes.org/dirtbagsnot-for-the-girly-man/#comment-6705 Matthew Aznoe Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:01:11 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/?p=25#comment-6705 One more quick thing that I forgot to add: when it comes to sin and vulgarity from the pulpit (or from any brother in Christ, really) that is completely out of line. We are commanded to let all unwholesome talk cease among us. Our conduct should be righteous and pure. It is debatable whether or not we should seek to enforce that in others around us. I can understand both sides, but I would tend to lean toward the grace and acceptance and let the Spirit convict them to change. However, as a man with influence on those around me, I strive to remain pure before God and thus be an example of Christ-likeness. We should all be striving to be able to say, like the apostle Paul, imitate me as I imitate Christ. It is one thing to go to where the sinners are and talk to them where they are at without judging or condemnation; it is another thing to then blend in and be just like them. How then can you testify to the life-changing work of Jesus Christ? One more quick thing that I forgot to add: when it comes to sin and vulgarity from the pulpit (or from any brother in Christ, really) that is completely out of line. We are commanded to let all unwholesome talk cease among us. Our conduct should be righteous and pure.

It is debatable whether or not we should seek to enforce that in others around us. I can understand both sides, but I would tend to lean toward the grace and acceptance and let the Spirit convict them to change. However, as a man with influence on those around me, I strive to remain pure before God and thus be an example of Christ-likeness. We should all be striving to be able to say, like the apostle Paul, imitate me as I imitate Christ.

It is one thing to go to where the sinners are and talk to them where they are at without judging or condemnation; it is another thing to then blend in and be just like them. How then can you testify to the life-changing work of Jesus Christ?

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