By Jeremy Myers Filed Under Theology Written on December 17, 2011

Calvinistic Child Abuse

Eventually I plan to write about my transition away from 5-point Calvinism. But I found something today I wanted to share.

The first point of Calvinism is Total Depravity, which essentially means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.

In Calvinism, this view naturally applies to children as well as adults, and yet even still, it was a shock for me to read the following statement by the leading American Calvinist, Jonathan Edwards:

As innocent as children seem to be to us, yet if they are out of Christ, they are not so in God’s sight, but are young vipers, and are infinitely more hateful than vipers.

Edwards said this in his work Some Thoughts Concerning the Present Revival, but it was later edited out by his grandson, Sereno Dwight.

Some might think this is an isolated case. Maybe it is not common, but I suspect it is more common than Calvinists like to admit. Logically, Total Depravity leads to this view. When I was a pastor, there was one Calvinistic father in my congregation who called his children “sinner black spots.”

I, for one, would have trouble worshiping a God who views children as infinitely more hateful than vipers. How about you?

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http://blogforthelordjesus.wordpress.com Mike Gantt

The debate between Calvinism and Arminianism must rank near the very top of the list of issues that have wasted the time of those who love Christ. It makes debates about the number of angels who can rest on the head of a pin seem practical by comparison.

The most pernicious aspect of C-v-A is that its antagonists insist we must all be in one camp or the other – that they have left us no option (I say “pernicious” advisedly because it pressures everyone to argue). Perhaps they haven’t. But Christ has left us the option of exercising childlike faith in Him and eschewing involvement in matters too great for us (Ps 131).

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

You may be right. Maybe I won’t write on it more later….

http://blogforthelordjesus.wordpress.com Mike Gantt

If in writing about it you can succeed in warning people to avoid getting caught in the trap of debating about it, more power to you.

http://www.thesonsofjeremiah.blogspot.com Larry

‘Iniquity is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction drives it far from him.’ (Proverbs)

But now is that rod of correction cold, stearn, distant? Or is that rod of correction involved, kind, example living, and praising as well as admonishing? It makes all the difference.

We are all worse than vipers, we have venom and the intellect to cunningly inject it when our adversaries least expect it. Children prove often that they have sin natures, but the Bible also says, ‘raise up a child in the way they should go, and he will not depart from it when he is old.’

Becoming twice the son of hell that my father was is not what that verse is talking about.

God bless.

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

Larry,

Discipline and correction are definitely needed. I am not arguing against that. But it is neither loving nor Godly to view our children as vipers hated by God.

Clive Clifton

Does it really matter that your right and the other person is apparently wrong. Jesus Love trumps all the heated debate about ism’s.

Men will always argue, as they are full of pride and will never admit to being wrong entirely.

The trouble with arguing is that it ends up in judging someone which is Gods job not ours. When we judge we dethrone God and put ourselves in His place.

There is nothing wrong in discussing stuff about God, like how he thinks, why He does things which we do not understand. but in the end we just have to accept the way He is.

If we believe He is Love then all He does is based on that premise. Judging God is even more scary than judging man.

Rather than following the philosophies of man just follow Jesus, or is that not challenging enough for our intellect. Pride comes before our fall.
Clive
Clive Clifton

Just to add, even God wants a conversation with us Isaiah 1 v 8. but are we?, as we will always loose the argument, and do we really want to be washed as white as snow and told our sins are like scarlet. Remember as we point the finger of judgement at our brother there are three pointing back at us on the same hand, tripling the curse on us.

Yes, judgement is a curse. Jesus said “don’t curse someone or you are in danger of the fires of hell” Matthew 5 v 22 also Jesus said “do not make a vow– just say a simple yes I will or no I wont anything beyond this is from the evil one”. verse 34 plus 37. Clive

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

I run from conflict. I really, really dislike it. So I really do not enjoy arguing with anyone, especially about theology.

However, a nice, friendly theological debate is a wonderful thing.

http://antwrites.com Ant Writes

Our heart is wicked, and it’s the job of Christian parents to raise their children “in the way they should go”. We test the heart, not necesarily the behavior. Our kids don’t necessarily have to be well-behaved, but if their heart isn’t right, then we have a problem.
But about Calvinism. I was raised to be a five pointer, but I read the entire Bible thru as a kid (Good News Translation) many times, and I never found our Lord to be that way. I’m not talking about “proof texting”. I just never saw the exclusive, damning ways of TULIP. I always said, that if we are truly his elect as calvin says, once saved always saved, then I don’t have to be holy! But the Arminian camp (most pentecostals), which stresses personal holiness is the other extreme. You can become legalistic. I tend nowadays to believe in both A & C! (A bit of both) The Calvary Chapel view is more in tune with my own. Some call it two point Calvinism

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

Yeah, I am 2.5 pointer…. but only because I believe 1/2 a point of each! Ha!

http://www.truth-makes-freedom.blogspot.com/ Katherine Gunn

Hmm…taking note of the above warnings about debate, etc….I was raised in church and never heard of Calvin or Arminius until the last couple of years, so the debate was new to me. But that aside, I will share the effect of Calvinism on me when I was confronted by it a couple of years ago.

I was in a blog conversation with several people and a self-professed Calvinist joined the thread, condemning a woman who was questioning some things. I got angry and challenged him with some questions of my own. His response to me was that if a young girl is raped, it was ordained of God and we needed to just look for the good He intended from it. To me, as a woman who was raped repeatedly as a child, this sounded like he was telling me that those events were planned by God and bore His stamp of approval. This ticked me off….a lot. But it also caused a great deal of pain. I have to be honest…if what was done to me was endorsed by God for some ‘greater good’, then He is a child-abusing monster undeserving of worship.

I understand, when I say that, it can be jarring to some. But I stand by it. I have had some serious conversations with God about this. I have told Him exactly what I said above. And he understands. And He IS NOT like that.

So to me, it is not an idle debate with no point. This teaching, especially when crammed down the throat of those who have been abused, only serves to drive them away from a loving God.

Okay…end of rant.

http://antwrites.com Ant Writes

Hearing your story made me cry..I kept seeing my daughter being repeatedly raped and I stated boiling with anger. If tast happened to my daughter, I would be in prison. I would have murdered the man who did that. But then I owuld blame myself because how could I not know? Especialy now that she’s only 4.
I’m so sorry that happened to you, Ms. Gunn

http://www.truth-makes-freedom.blogspot.com/ Katherine Gunn

Anthony, thank you.

I apologize if my comment was too intense. But I really want those of the Calvinistic persuasion to think about the implications of what they say – and the effect that can have.
http://www.truth-makes-freedom.blogspot.com/ Katherine Gunn

Anthony, I want to repeat my thanks. Your reaction is the opposite of my own parents. I am resisting the urge (normal among abuse survivors) to take responsibility for upsetting you.

Your reaction tells me you care deeply for your daughter. She’s fortunate. I think one of the more insidious aspects of this man’s argument was that it painted a picture of God that looked like my parents. When I told my father about it a couple of years ago, his comments were “I can see why you don’t like to be around him (the abuser)” and “well, the Holy Spirit will comfort you. That’s what He does – comfort.” And that was all he had to say. My mom, on the other hand, has repeatedly sided with the abuser.

The only place of sanity I’ve ever had was with Jesus. Paint Him as a callous, indifferent manipulator who uses people for his own ends without concern for the pain inflicted (which is what the Calvinism I’ve seen does) and I have no safe place left.

http://antwrites.com Ant Writes

Well, I’m not Jim Boehner, but anything with children gets me upset.
Then of course, even though I don’t like country music, I burst into full tears before he gets to the refrain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yFl7lIQ8E8
Hmm, maybe I do have some similarities to Boehner
When we lived in Queens, our neighbors had a 13 year old girl who started hanging out w/ the wrong crowd. (REALLY wrong) Her mother, a fellow Christian said matter-of-fsctly “Well, I’m not surprised, she was raped by her cousin last year”. My wife said “What did you do?” She goes, “what COULD we do? He comes over every week and plays cards with my husband”
My wife was flabbergasted. Woudn’t want to ruin your husband’s precious card game while your innocent daughter was raped and then you invite him over..every week..while your daughter is THERE. And she TOLD her father. We found out he would go to the bathroom, sneak in her room, rape her and come back and play cards. I’d e in a serious bind, because I wouldn’t want my daughter visiting me in prison.
I’m raising my son to be her protector.

http://www.truth-makes-freedom.blogspot.com/ Katherine Gunn

Hmm…again, your daughter is fortunate. I can’t imagine what it would be like to have someone feel that way about me. :/
http://antwrites.com Ant Writes

That defies reason. I stop everything I do for my children. I’m also responsinle for how they turn out. I can’t understand how you CAN’T love your children above everything else. We waited until I was 40 to have children, mostly because I was scared that I would mess them up. But the minute my daughter was born, my life changed. We moved out of NYC, and went to a better place to raise a child. I only work about an hour a day on my blog so as not to take time away from my children. I never had a father, so I know the problems of not having one.

http://www.graceground.com Sam

Sometimes when one follows their theology out to what they believe to be its logical conclusions, they end up with nonsense such as the man on the blog. They end up with their own ultra-weird religion, something that looks nothing like Jesus. Stay away from people like that. Some of them are literally dangerous. (I heard a very similar explanation from a man who had raped his own young daughter repeatedly.)
http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

Katherine,

That is very sad. I also am sorry that happened to you, and for what that woman told you. Both were terribly wrong, and God does not ordain or plan such things to happen.

Do you think that God has been able to use what happened to you to help other people gain freedom from similar experiences, or to learn what God is really like?

http://www.truth-makes-freedom.blogspot.com/ Katherine Gunn

Jeremy, THAT is exactly what He has/is doing. I have no problem with the truth that He will use things – redeem things – work things to our good and the good of others, But to twist that to mean that He planned evil for that purpose is just sick.

http://blogforthelordjesus.wordpress.com Mike Gantt

While I don’t agree with Calvinists or Arminians and I think their debate is a waste of precious energy that should instead be devoted to serving the Lord, I think we have to say something in fairness. It is that all Calvinists would not be abusive to KG as that man was, nor are all such insensitive people Calvinists. In other words, I think Calvinists are wrong but I don’t think that they all would whitewash rape.

Rape is perhaps the most despicable thing that one human being can do to another – worse than murder. Those who excuse it must not be excused. Therefore, I join Ant in condemning both the man who did the evil thing and the Calvinist who tried to make God complicit in it. And I have to believe there are Calvinists who would agree with us about this.

http://antwrites.com Ant Writes

I definitely agree with you. We should never paint all calvinists with the same brush, however the puritans and those who led the witch trials were calvinists. Plus, Calvin was a wimpy Frenchman
http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

Yes, I see your point. I know some wonderful, good-hearted, Chirstlike, caring, service-oriented, loving Calvinists.
http://www.truth-makes-freedom.blogspot.com/ Katherine Gunn

Mike, my intent was not to say that all Calvinists are like this. It was only to point out to what extreme the doctrine can be taken.

http://blogforthelordjesus.wordpress.com Mike Gantt

Agreed.

Bart Breen

I don’t think the A vs. C debate is a waste of time when it serves to reveal to someone blinded to the character and nature of God, how genuinely loving God really is.

It’s not a place to camp permanently but it’s worth pitching a tent for a few weekends to consider how our view of God’s Character and love impacts our daily walk with God.

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

Bart,

Hmmm… I might be inclined to agree.

I spent nearly ten years of my life studying this issue (not constantly, of course, but all the books I read, all the websites I visited, etc, etc, were about about this issue).

I have since stopped studying it, but it might be good to go back sometime and write some posts about what I learned just so others who are researching the issues can make informed decisions on their own.

fallan

Jesus said “BY their fruits you will know them”.Ive only met one Calvinist a Pastor and was struck by his arrogance.Ive debated on a forum with a Calvinist same thing arrogant.This was the sin of the Pharisees that even our Lord had to contend with.When they see human beings including children as depraved then you can understand why they act this way its in their DNA.Remember God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believed in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.Sinners YES depraved NO.I agree there are those who HATE the light and love the darkness God knows who they are our mission on this earth is to show to those who dont believe Christ in us.

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

Well, they have a right to be arrogant, since they are completely right!

http://heretichusband.blogspot.com Heretic Husband

I currently have 14,278 Calvinist points – at 15,000 I get a free tote bag!

Seriously though, I find Calvinism repulsive. How do you reconcile the concept of an all loving God with a God who views children as vipers?

-HH

fallan

they debate about this doctrine as if it cannot be countered yet it is countered by many scholars who believe in free will.But what they dont seem to grasp is how they come across not just to other Christians but also non-believers.

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

Heretic Husband (nice name!!),

Where do I sign up for one of those tote bags?

fallan

pardon?

John Fisher

If you had a hypothetical child who, fully understanding the nature of God actively rejected Him permanently, then yes I would say God would find that child’s presence unacceptable and hateful – except that this doesn’t happen in real life. That’s the problem with all 5 points of Calvinism, is that they depend on an absence of free will, so if a child isn’t part of ‘the elect’ then their rejection of God and damnation is complete and permanent.

My disagreement with Calvinism’s points is that all 5 points are all based on assuming a complete lack of free will, so each bases itself on Biblical principles, then among 2 possible interpretations of a passage chooses one that means ignoring other Scriptural principles that clearly demonstrate Man being given a will and invited to cooperate in God’s plan.

I liked Jeremy’s “2.5 pointer” Calvinism because at first I thought “well you’re at least half wrong then…” but then I saw the 1/2 point in each and thought “Oh, we probably essentially agree on this” although I don’t give partial credit so I would say I’m 0/5. The funny thing is I’ve also seen some people who consider themselves 5 point Calvinists, but then in a description of each point they say “This point doesn’t mean… it only means…” and in each case they reject what Calvin clearly meant in establishing the point and instead reach a conclusion that most any non-Calvinist would agree with, the true basis behind the Calvinist false interpretation that (I think) earns them half credit for Jeremy; so I think we all have to be clear and spend time asking clarifying questions because we can express different things the same way and the same thing different ways.

Obviously from the time I’ve spent posting this, I might still agree with those who say “much time has been wasted” on debating C v. A, but I disagree that all debating of it is wasteful. That is, if we argue with our brothers in Christ in a hateful way and allow ourselves to be distracted from actually living as Christ would have us, it’s entirely a waste of time; but if we are debating (I tend to use the words ‘argue’ and ‘debate’ to distinguish between the destructive, antagonistic and the constructive sharing) while maintaining proper care and concern for the PERSONS on the opposing perspective, then even if neither of us changes our position at the end we can both still benefit from the exchange of ideas and hopefully both walk away from the debate prepared to work cooperatively in Christ’s name despite differing beliefs in the details of His nature that are beyond us anyways.

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

John,

Good point about people who claim to be Calvinists, but then don’t frame their Calvinism the way Calvin did. Are such people really Calvinists? I would say, “No.”

What I don’t understand is why so many people want to be Calvinists. What is the allure in it? Is it because so many big name pastors and authors are Calvinists?

I think that was why I was originally a Calvinist. Most of the pastors and authors I read and respected were Calvinists, and so I thought, “Well, they must be right.”

John Fisher

I would say ‘no’ as well. Though people can sometimes be offended at being told they aren’t something that they choose to identify themselves with, saying “No, I don’t believe in [attributes of a given group] but I still choose to identify myself as a [group], who are you to tell me that I’m not?” And I can understand when those attributes are just things the public tends to associate with a group, not necessarily something that describes every member; but sometimes those attributes are by definition what the word means, the word ceases to be useful if it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

I think that you’ve got the right idea as to why people often do identify with a group in their thoughts even though they more or less shouldn’t by definition, it does often have to do with an authority that one respects or trusts.

I think it’s definitely something we need to keep in mind when assessing our own positions. I am confident that the set of nouns I use to describe myself are based on my own ideology, not on authorities I follow, but when I’m honest and self-aware enough I have to admit that I still get that same sort of pride in important figures (both historical and in my personal life) who share the same thought; it’s something we have to keep ourselves aware of to keep it in check. It’s not a bad thing to have a sense of identity with a group, but if we let pride turn that into an us vs. them, it becomes divisive and harmful.

It helps to keep in mind the early Chapters of 1 Corinthians – Paul does go so far as to appeal to followers to emulate his example as a follower of Christ, but only spending a good deal of time throughout the first 3 chapters warning us of the dangers and pitfalls of loosing your perspective when following a human leader. (Note that even people who claim to simply follow Jesus are subject to the admonition in chapter 1 – you can be trying to follow even the most perfect person but still be divisive.)

http://www.tillhecomes.org Jeremy Myers

Regarding pride, the next book I am going to write will be titled, “The Three Most Humble Men in the World, and How I Led the Other Two to Christ.”