Re. “I’m not arguing that because Eldredge and Murrow are using pagan ideas, we should accept them.”

Of course you’re not; didn’t think you were. We’re just on opposite sides of the argument. You think some/many/most (I don’t know which) of the “pagan” elements in Eldredge, et al. are true, and the pagans picked them up through common grace. (I think that’s what you’re saying; is it?)

I think many/most of the “pagan” elements are pagan, without the quotation marks, and Eldredge picked them up through undiscerning syncretism. I should add, in fairness to Eldredge, that he’s identified some phenomena that are real problems, but I’m not sure he’s parsed them correctly, nor that he’s got the correct angle of attack on a solution.

Re. “All I’m saying is that we cannot reject what they are saying simply because they use some ideas that are also found in ‘paganism.’”

You’ll get no argument from me on the point. (Modern Postural) Yoga is part of my personal fitness strategy, and I practice a martial art invented and transmitted by animists, my most recent teacher included. Oh, and I learned geometry from an atheist. “The earth is the Lord’s, and all the fullness thereof.”

Thanks for this. I went to church today…and grimaced through songs about leaning against Jesus and feeling his breath on my neck and feeling his heart beat next to mine. I couldn’t sing that. Then the pastor got up and beat us all over the head with how we all need to “man up” by being better fathers, better husbands, more honest at work. Then there was a testimony time where 6-8 women got up and cried and cried about their fathers. Afterwards, all I wanted to do was go kill myself. Instead, we went to McDonalds, which I guess is about the same thing.

Cold pancakes, sticky syrup and lukewarm coffee and eggs will not bring men back to church. Doing the same thing over and over will get us the same results. Fewer and fewer men coming to church. More and more children following their father’s example…. Leaving church and not returning to church when they leave their parent’s home. We must stop whining and complaining and start focusing on the fact that men are staying home on Sundays or finding other communities (Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, Dunkin Donuts, etc) instead of going to church. Can I get an amen from married ladies who become single women on Sundays? Why? Their husband isn’t in church with them. I know women who would drive 100 miles to a church if their husband would go along with them.

I’m not arguing that because Eldredge and Murrow are using pagan ideas, we should accept them. That would be crazy. All I’m saying is that we cannot reject what they are saying simply because they use some ideas that are also found in “paganism.”

I think the case could easily be made that Murrow and Eldredge are actually calling us back to a form of Biblical manhood because the most common conception of “manhood” in Christianity today is one that borrowed themes and ideas from various forms of “paganism.”

I couldn’t possibly disagree with you more on Murrow/Eldredge and paganism. The fact that a lot of Christian praxis today owes something to paganism doesn’t excuse a specific case of it; it just means that we’re in a target-rich environment.

Not to say we should be superstitious about things pagans have touched. I’m with Augustin on the accomplishments of pagans: just because some God-hating yahoo claims Mercury invented letters doesn’t mean we should give up writing. But all the same, some discernment is called for.

My broad-brush take on Eldredge, et al, is that it’s a pendulum swing from one pagan extreme to the other, having missed the point of biblical manhood entirely. It’s largely a retread of pagan manhood material (a la Robert Bly) with a veneer of Christianity spackled on the top. What they ought to have done is go back to Scripture and re-develop the categories from the ground up, which produces a very different set of categories.

I have a friend who is hoping to post his research on this subject within the next month or two (he’s planning to do his thesis in this area). I’ll let you know when it’s available; I’d love to hear your take on it.

By the way, one good example of fatherhood is Genesis 25:1-8. It looks like a throwaway at first glance, but if you take it in the context of the promises, it’s estate planning with the coming centuries in mind. Had the other sons settled in territory promised to Isaac’s descendants, God would have had to uproot or destroy them four centuries later, and Abraham knew it. What we see here is a man who has attended to what God is doing, and is settling his affairs accordingly for the well-being of his children. A good parallel: Proverbs 13:22.

That’s one thing I love about you: Your honesty!

I know that lots of people don’t care much for Murrow or Eldredge. I agree that they paint something of a stereotype. But if anything, they are just combatting the opposite stereotype that if a man becomes a Christian, he has to become a wimp. I think it’s a healthy correction.

I know I sure don’t fit the Murrow/Eldredge stereotype 100%. In fact, when I read “Wild at Heart” by Eldredge, I cried! How manly is that? Ha ha.

And the fact that Eldredge borrowed some from paganism doesn’t bother me much. There is almost nothing that we do or think today which is not in some way borrowed from “paganism.” Most of our “Christian” holidays, and Biblical genres are built upon pagan practices.

Thanks for all you do over at Conversation at the Edge!

Also, Wild at Heart quotes approvingly from Iron John, a book based on pagan beliefs about gods and goddesses. Why would someone claiming to be sharing what the Bible teaches about men use a source book like that?

Even though I don’t care for those two authors I hope you have a wonderful Father’s Day