Comments on: Would Jesus be a Christian? http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/ Living life on mission Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:29:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Can I hear an Amen?!!! « Post WCG Life and Theology http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-42526 Can I hear an Amen?!!! « Post WCG Life and Theology Tue, 20 May 2008 01:00:42 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-42526 [...] From the blog ‘Til He Comes” at http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/. [...] [...] From the blog ‘Til He Comes” at http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/. [...]

]]> By: mark http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14978 mark Tue, 01 Jan 2008 06:15:07 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14978 Jeremy, Thanks for the kind response. I read back over my comments. If I sounded harsh I apologize. We're all in process. I look forward to more lively discussion on relevant topics. God bless, Jeremy, Thanks for the kind response. I read back over my comments. If I sounded harsh I apologize. We’re all in process. I look forward to more lively discussion on relevant topics. God bless,

]]> By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14902 Jeremy Myers Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:37:29 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14902 Mark, Thanks for the clarification. I think I completely agree with you. I may have strongly stated the case for social action, but this is only because for too many years, I have been too focused on head knowledge and learning the Bible and theology, and I feel that finally, my theology is starting to result in practice. Certain areas of my theology have been influential in getting me to this point, and this post is one way of showing one of those truths of theology. Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. I think I completely agree with you.

I may have strongly stated the case for social action, but this is only because for too many years, I have been too focused on head knowledge and learning the Bible and theology, and I feel that finally, my theology is starting to result in practice. Certain areas of my theology have been influential in getting me to this point, and this post is one way of showing one of those truths of theology.

]]> By: mark http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14851 mark Mon, 31 Dec 2007 02:37:23 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14851 In my comments I was referring to the original article "Would Jesus be a Christian". Balance is the key to understanding any of these issues. It is always tempting to fall out of balance in order to make a point, and that (it seems to me) is what this article does. I'm certainly not saying that helping others is satanic. That would be absurd, but what I am saying is that Satan uses this mentality to discourage people from investigating and or accepting Christianity as a viable personal relationship that really changes lives. I m sure he would love nothing better than to spread the lie that christians are a bunch of petty academics splitting hairs while the world is going to hell in a hand basket. No one (me included) would suggest (I hope) that Christianity should not produce works, but having said that it is important to understand that genuine (God ordained) works come from a persons view of God. Understanding doctrine and theology is critically important to the growth of the church, and has been under attack these past few decades as being divisive and damaging and anti productive. This attitude lends itself to the passivity and apathy within the modern evangelical church. The church is desperate for men and women leaders who are doctrincally sound and tuned into the culture. In short, works is not a good theology, but sound theology is never devoid of good works. Just as a closing note, I've read much of C H Mackintosh's materials online and have some in print. He was an amazing man mightily used of God and I look forward someday to sitting down with him myself and discussing a few things. In my comments I was referring to the original article “Would Jesus be a Christian”. Balance is the key to understanding any of these issues. It is always tempting to fall out of balance in order to make a point, and that (it seems to me) is what this article does. I’m certainly not saying that helping others is satanic. That would be absurd, but what I am saying is that Satan uses this mentality to discourage people from investigating and or accepting Christianity as a viable personal relationship that really changes lives. I m sure he would love nothing better than to spread the lie that christians are a bunch of petty academics splitting hairs while the world is going to hell in a hand basket. No one (me included) would suggest (I hope) that Christianity should not produce works, but having said that it is important to understand that genuine (God ordained) works come from a persons view of God. Understanding doctrine and theology is critically important to the growth of the church, and has been under attack these past few decades as being divisive and damaging and anti productive. This attitude lends itself to the passivity and apathy within the modern evangelical church. The church is desperate for men and women leaders who are doctrincally sound and tuned into the culture. In short, works is not a good theology, but sound theology is never devoid of good works. Just as a closing note, I’ve read much of C H Mackintosh’s materials online and have some in print. He was an amazing man mightily used of God and I look forward someday to sitting down with him myself and discussing a few things.

]]> By: Jeremy Myers http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14692 Jeremy Myers Sat, 29 Dec 2007 23:54:34 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14692 Hmmm...a wide variety of responses to this post... Matthew C: Who is the female unbeliever you are referring to? The friend I referred to in my post is male. Are you referring to Tia? What gives you the impression she is an unbeliever? Nevertheless, you raise a good question that needs to be asked of all critics of Christianity. Of course, we are the ones who claim to be following Jesus, not they. So it seems like we are the ones who have more responsibility to serve. Jim: Thanks for the quote from Mackintosh. I have that volume and have enjoyed reading from it over the years. Mike: Excellent summary. I checked out your blog. It looks like you are a pastor. Are you finding the people of your church willing to reach out with love? What has been effective? Mark: I'm not sure if you were commenting about my post or someone's comment. Either way, none of us said that the church is not helping the poor. Furthermore, none of us are saying that we need to neglect theology. The quote from Mackintosh comes the closest to saying that, and if you think that is what he is saying, you should get his book and read it. It's pure theology. Finally, are you really saying that serving and loving others is a work of Satan--a diversion from dealing with our relationship with God and provides an excuse for selfish living? I am fully persuaded that one doesn't really have an intimate relationship with God UNLESS they are serving and loving others. What good is all the theology in all the books in all the libraries of the world if it doesn't cause a person to provide food and clothing for the hungry and naked (James 2:14-26)? Hmmm…a wide variety of responses to this post…

Matthew C: Who is the female unbeliever you are referring to? The friend I referred to in my post is male. Are you referring to Tia? What gives you the impression she is an unbeliever? Nevertheless, you raise a good question that needs to be asked of all critics of Christianity. Of course, we are the ones who claim to be following Jesus, not they. So it seems like we are the ones who have more responsibility to serve.

Jim: Thanks for the quote from Mackintosh. I have that volume and have enjoyed reading from it over the years.

Mike: Excellent summary. I checked out your blog. It looks like you are a pastor. Are you finding the people of your church willing to reach out with love? What has been effective?

Mark: I’m not sure if you were commenting about my post or someone’s comment. Either way, none of us said that the church is not helping the poor. Furthermore, none of us are saying that we need to neglect theology. The quote from Mackintosh comes the closest to saying that, and if you think that is what he is saying, you should get his book and read it. It’s pure theology. Finally, are you really saying that serving and loving others is a work of Satan–a diversion from dealing with our relationship with God and provides an excuse for selfish living? I am fully persuaded that one doesn’t really have an intimate relationship with God UNLESS they are serving and loving others. What good is all the theology in all the books in all the libraries of the world if it doesn’t cause a person to provide food and clothing for the hungry and naked (James 2:14-26)?

]]> By: mark http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14627 mark Sat, 29 Dec 2007 05:11:31 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14627 What makes you think for a minute that the church isn't helping the poor. I know many who do so, and don't go around trying to be noticed for doing it. By far the majority of people doing benevolence in the world today come from some form of Christianity. Arguments within the church are a product of the falleness of man and the determination of Satan to neutralize the effects of the church by promoting just this kind of dribble. Conflict is a necessary part of purifying and defining theology. There is a move afloat to denounce theology, but theology is what moves us. We all operate withing the confines of our view of God (theology). We all have one, and since we do, it does us well to define it and make certain it is in alignment with the bible. This sort of nonsense is always a diversion to dealing with your own relationship with God and following your own selfish motives for living. What makes you think for a minute that the church isn’t helping the poor. I know many who do so, and don’t go around trying to be noticed for doing it. By far the majority of people doing benevolence in the world today come from some form of Christianity. Arguments within the church are a product of the falleness of man and the determination of Satan to neutralize the effects of the church by promoting just this kind of dribble. Conflict is a necessary part of purifying and defining theology. There is a move afloat to denounce theology, but theology is what moves us. We all operate withing the confines of our view of God (theology). We all have one, and since we do, it does us well to define it and make certain it is in alignment with the bible. This sort of nonsense is always a diversion to dealing with your own relationship with God and following your own selfish motives for living.

]]> By: Mike Messerli http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14578 Mike Messerli Sat, 29 Dec 2007 00:40:49 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14578 Thanks for the post. Well written. I think the answer to your question is easy AND hard- we have to get out of our cloistered Christian communities, connect with the non-Christian world around us, and love them unconditionally.....that's what will change the world around us....it always has in the past. Thanks for the post. Well written. I think the answer to your question is easy AND hard- we have to get out of our cloistered Christian communities, connect with the non-Christian world around us, and love them unconditionally…..that’s what will change the world around us….it always has in the past.

]]> By: Jim http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14559 Jim Fri, 28 Dec 2007 22:14:54 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14559 Jeremy, Another good post, Judaism went astray became a system of works versus trusting in God - crucified the Messiah, the Church became a corporate entity with a sacerdotal system of power - no one wants anything to do with it, we make all kinds of excuses to not become disciples of Christ Jesus, but we like our progressive sanctification just fine in the pew. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of hard working believers who are disciples and are risking their lives to reflect the image of Jesus to a hostile world. I especially like the part where you point out theological arguments - when it denigrates I withdraw. C. H. Macintosh said it best, "God has not confined Himself within the narrow limits of any school of doctrine – high, low or moderate. He has revealed Himself. He has told out the deep and precious secrets of His heart. He has unfolded His eternal counsels, as to the Church, as to Israel, the Gentiles, and the wide creation. Men might as well attempt to confine the ocean in buckets of their own formation as to confine the vast range of divine revelation within the feeble enclosures of human systems of doctrine. It cannot be done, and it ought not to be attempted. Better far to set aside the systems of theology and schools of divinity and come like a little child to the eternal fountain of Holy Scripture, and there drink in the living teachings of God's Spirit." (C.H. Mackintosh, The Mackintosh Treasury, Miscellaneous Writings by C.H. Mackintosh, (Loizeaux Brothers, New Jersey, 1976), 605.) Jim P.S. Matthew C. How do you know that Tia is an unbeliever? And even if she is, Jesus spent a lot of His ministry with sinners and tax collectors...we should follow the example don't you agree? Jeremy,

Another good post, Judaism went astray became a system of works versus trusting in God - crucified the Messiah, the Church became a corporate entity with a sacerdotal system of power - no one wants anything to do with it, we make all kinds of excuses to not become disciples of Christ Jesus, but we like our progressive sanctification just fine in the pew. Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of hard working believers who are disciples and are risking their lives to reflect the image of Jesus to a hostile world.

I especially like the part where you point out theological arguments - when it denigrates I withdraw. C. H. Macintosh said it best,

“God has not confined Himself within the narrow limits of any school of doctrine – high, low or moderate. He has revealed Himself. He has told out the deep and precious secrets of His heart. He has unfolded His eternal counsels, as to the Church, as to Israel, the Gentiles, and the wide creation. Men might as well attempt to confine the ocean in buckets of their own formation as to confine the vast range of divine revelation within the feeble enclosures of human systems of doctrine. It cannot be done, and it ought not to be attempted. Better far to set aside the systems of theology and schools of divinity and come like a little child to the eternal fountain of Holy Scripture, and there drink in the living teachings of God’s Spirit.” (C.H. Mackintosh, The Mackintosh Treasury, Miscellaneous Writings by C.H. Mackintosh, (Loizeaux Brothers, New Jersey, 1976), 605.)

Jim

P.S. Matthew C. How do you know that Tia is an unbeliever? And even if she is, Jesus spent a lot of His ministry with sinners and tax collectors…we should follow the example don’t you agree?

]]> By: Matthew C http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14514 Matthew C Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:50:15 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14514 I would ask the unbelieving critic what she thinks Christians should be doing. And then ask whether she does those things. I would ask the unbelieving critic what she thinks Christians should be doing. And then ask whether she does those things.

]]> By: Tia Lynn http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14496 Tia Lynn Fri, 28 Dec 2007 07:20:09 +0000 http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2007/12/27/would-jesus-be-a-christian/#comment-14496 This is an excellent post. The truth is hard to hear, but you are right, us Christians have placed so much emphasis on religion, self-righteousness, outward appearance, superficial morality, and fighting the world with the weapons of force, fear, domination, and manipulation instead of mercy, compassion, and sacrificial love. We need to surrender our lust for power and recognition and return to the radical teachings of Jesus, it's not easy task, but it must happen if the church is ever going to be the true light of the world Jesus envisioned. This is an excellent post. The truth is hard to hear, but you are right, us Christians have placed so much emphasis on religion, self-righteousness, outward appearance, superficial morality, and fighting the world with the weapons of force, fear, domination, and manipulation instead of mercy, compassion, and sacrificial love. We need to surrender our lust for power and recognition and return to the radical teachings of Jesus, it’s not easy task, but it must happen if the church is ever going to be the true light of the world Jesus envisioned.

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