What would you say?
Sep 21st 2007Jeremy MyersChurch & Church Planting & Life & Mission & Theology
Imagine yourself in church, and as the service starts, a young couple sits down in front of you. You are a bit surprised to see them in church, because you know one of them from work. He is not the kind of guy you think would come to church. But here he is!
As the service starts, the worship leader invites everybody to stand and greet those around them. You do, and warmly greet the couple in front of you. The guy you know from work says they came because you are always talking about how great your church is. You are excited he came because of that, but are a little nervous because you know he isn’t the church type. The couple isn’t married, but is very sexually active, and don’t have any qualms about public displays of affection. You hope they don’t hold hands or kiss during the service.
But wouldn’t you know it…as the music starts, each puts one arm around the other and they hold each other close. Then, after a few minutes, they start holding hands. You look around nervously. Not even many married people hold hands when they are in your church, and you are afraid how this couple’s affection will be taken, especially since you know most people know that they are not married.
During the sermon, they sit close enough to each other that they are touching, but that’s about it.
After the service is over, they turn around to greet you again, and say, “You were right! We really liked attending here. I think we will come again next week.”
What would you say to them? Who would you introduce them to? Would you tell them to not hold hands next week? Would you tell them about a six-inch rule for unmarried couples? Would you tell them that sex before marriage was a sin and God did not approve of fornication?
Oh, and before you answer, I forgot to tell you…The couple is gay. It’s two guys.
Now, with that information, what would you say?
12 Comments »
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andrewrmcneill on 21 Sep 2007 at 3:53 pm #
Gulp! If you make condemnatory comments about their relationship and actions during the service then you can be sure they won’t come back. But if you don’t say anything there is the possibility that they will come back and somewhere along the line will believe and be discipled and will cease their relationship. The only problem with that view is that it does seem to gloss over sin. I think then, it would be ideal if one could say something to the couple in a sensitive way but if there is the possibility that saying something would make them leave for good, then one would probably be better not saying anything… I think.
But I’m not sure. Am I just swallowing the spirit of tolerance that permeates this age or am I saying something that an apostle might say? I don’t know!
Jeremy Myers on 21 Sep 2007 at 6:51 pm #
Andrew,
Yeah, difficult decision. Would it make any difference if the couple wasn’t gay? If an unmarried guy and girl showed up in church, and you knew they were sexually active because you worked with him, and he told you about his relationship, and they were hugging each other and holding hands, would you say something then? Most people probably wouldn’t. But when it comes to a gay couple, many of us begin to have problems. Why?
andrewrmcneill on 22 Sep 2007 at 2:39 am #
I agree with you that I would see things slightly differently if they weren’t gay. It’s probably just underlying homophobia coming through. We are brought up to think that homosexuality is, above all other sins, the very worst. Another factor, for me at least, would be the desire to protect them from the criticism of the rest of the very fundamentalist congregation who wouldn’t be too nice to them and thus I would be tempted to say something to them about their display of affection in church.
Jeremy Myers on 22 Sep 2007 at 10:55 am #
Andrew,
That is an excellent point! If you said anything at all, you would probably want to approach it as you have suggested. In this way, anything you say is said in a spirit of love and concern for them. I like it.
A related and interesting dilemma has come up with my wife and I right now concerning a lesbian couple who is adopting a child from Guatemala (Wendy and I are adopting a girl from Guatemala as well) and has come to us for parenting advice. Talk about a minefield! Maybe I will make a post about it later…
andrewrmcneill on 22 Sep 2007 at 11:37 am #
Tricky, tricky situation! I trust God will guide you to make the right decisions and say the right things!
Blessings,
Andrew.
don reiher on 22 Sep 2007 at 4:40 pm #
I don’t think it is that difficult or rare.
If they are actively engaged in immorality, it does not matter if they are heterosexual or homosexual. . . someone needs to confront them ASAP. I would definately give them the gospel during that initial confrontation, because you may never see them again. If they are totally closed to getting right with God, then I would tell them they probably should stop their sinful behavior, and that if they want to come to your church, that they need to lay off the public display because it could corrupt the people in the church. It has to be done by someone who is good at counseling not by someone who tends to be abrasive. I don’t think we should care if we offend them, as long as it is done correctly. That is up to them if they get offended by a loving rebuke. You just gotta tell them the truth.
Broadly speaking, there are 2 kinds of homosexuals who would walk into a church. The first kind are the ones who REALLY don’t think that what they are doing is wrong. They are not trying to be in your face about anything. . . they are simply ignorant, are buying into cultural relativism, and have suppressed their conciences and are carnal pleasure seekers. They are not trying to promote homosexuality itself. I am usually much more willing to actually talk to these kinds of folks. I would confront them and tell them that they are welcome to come but to nix the public display and stop sinning. I would say they need to not live with each other anymore. I would say the same thing to a guy and girl.
The second kind are the ones who know they are wrong, and who HATE Christians, and are trying to get in your face and flaunt homosexuality before everybody. If this was the case, I would ask them to leave and not come back. They are trying to convert your congregation!
It all depends on what kind they are.
- Don
drotsap on 24 Sep 2007 at 10:12 am #
Jeremy,
What a great post! I am in the middle of doing a sermon series on evangelism at my church and I’ve been challenging people to invite their unchurched friends to church. Then I ‘accidentally’ found your blog and thought I gotta “plagiarize” this in my blog.
I was gonna ask your permission first but I didn’t know how to contact you. So I took the liberty of copying this post in my blog.
The way you presented the issue is so spot on, I’m thinking of hiring a couple of actors to act this out one Sunday in my church. what do you think?
Jeremy Myers on 24 Sep 2007 at 8:19 pm #
Daniel, (I got your name from your blog…)
Absolutely, go ahead and use it. I’m glad you found it.
If you could come up with a way to do this as a play, I think it would be great! But how would you do it without tipping your hand right away that the couple is two guys? Maybe you could do it first with a guy and girl, with the “observing” actors not showing much reaction, then do it a second time with two guys, and the same “observing” actors having a negative reaction, thereby revealing their “double” standard.
If you video it, PLEASE let me know, and if you post it on YouTube, I’ll link to it.
I read through your blog, and LOVED the article about Jesus being a party animal.
So, you live in Perth? What do you know about Aukland? I know it’s in a different country and everything, but you’re closer than I am. Ha ha.
drotsap on 25 Sep 2007 at 2:12 am #
Hey Jeremy,
I’m glad you approved. Phew! I’ll make sure I give you proper credit for it in my next post.
I’m not talking about acting it out in a play. I’m thinking of hiring actors and ask them to pretend to be visitors and see how the church people react. What do you think about that? It’s complicated I know, but it would be ‘fun’
Auckland is BEAUTIFUL. I’ve been there twice to speak at church camps. It’s quite far from where I am though. About a 6 hour flight. Where are you guys located? Were you a DTS student? I was at DTS from 1996-2000. Anyways, if you want to know more about Auckland, do ask me again.
blessings
daniel
P.S. if you don’t mind, I will link your blog in mine.
Kimberly on 25 Sep 2007 at 8:18 am #
If they are actively engaged in immorality, it does not matter if they are heterosexual or homosexual. . . someone needs to confront them ASAP. I would definately give them the gospel during that initial confrontation, because you may never see them again. If they are totally closed to getting right with God, then I would tell them they probably should stop their sinful behavior, and that if they want to come to your church, that they need to lay off the public display because it could corrupt the people in the church. It has to be done by someone who is good at counseling not by someone who tends to be abrasive. I don’t think we should care if we offend them, as long as it is done correctly. That is up to them if they get offended by a loving rebuke. You just gotta tell them the truth.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
The Truth is that God created them and loves them. The Truth is the Holy Spirit is the one who will convict them of their sin, and until they have submitted to the Spirit, they will be unable to receive it. The Truth is that we are responsible for holding anyone who calls himself a brother to the Bible’s standards. The Truth is that if we run them out of the building we call the church, we will be running them off from ever being a part of the Bride of Christ. The Truth is we would not be so quick to react to the greedy, swindling, idolatrous, sexually immoral, slandering, drunkard people who claim to be our brothers and sisters in Christ (or to ourselves).
Jeremy Myers on 25 Sep 2007 at 11:48 am #
Kimberly and Don,
You both make some good points, and you are right that IF this couple is confronted, it must be done with grace and love.
However, when I look at churches today, it seems that we often confuse the requirements we have for believers to fellowship with other believers with what we require from unbelievers to come and learn more about Jesus Christ and the gospel.
Sometimes, we overlook the sins of other believers because we recognize they are “sinners saved by grace” but then condemn and correct certain behaviors of unbelievers because we want to show our separation from the world. I think maybe we’ve got it backwards. Believers, because they are believers, need to be held up to a higher standard of living, while unbelievers, because they are unbelievers, can be accepted as they are.
Furthermore, if we tell unbelievers that they need to change their behavior in order to come to church or fit in with other believers, they may get the wrong idea that becoming a Christian requires changing behavior, which it does not.
Finally, if people in our church are having problems with the way certain “sinners” are acting in church, maybe we need to correct how these church members view unbelievers, rather than ask unbelievers to conform to the lifestyle expectations of believers.
Certainly, if a person or a couple was coming to church to intentionally cause problems, they would have to be dealt with and asked not to return. But my experience has been that I get this more from legalistic Christians than I do from unbelievers.
Anyway, thanks for your comments! Let’s keep dialoguing about this.
Jeremy Myers on 25 Sep 2007 at 9:30 pm #
Daniel,
yes, please add my blog to yours. I will return the favor and add you to my blogroll.
Regarding hiring actors to “perform” this in your church, it might be a good idea. Will you do it over the course of a few Sundays? Like the first sunday, have a heterosexual couple display some affection, and see what kind of response you get, and then the second sunday have a “homosexual” couple display some affection to see if there is a different response?
I told my wife about your idea, and she LOVED it. She though you could even do other “sins” like having two women gossip, and see if anybody in the church corrects them or passes it on instead.
But all of this is getting into some dangerous territory. I read of one church here in the states a few years ago that got some fake terrorists to come into their church and threaten everybody with guns that if they didn’t recant their faith in Jesus, they would be shot. I think the church got sued.
Anyway, let me know what you do, and how it goes! Be discerning!