How is that for a blog post title?
Ok, students, I have an assignment for you.
In Josh McDowell’s book, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, he references a quote from the Jewish Babylonian Talmud which supposedly says, “Woe unto us, for the scepter has departed from Judah, and the Messiah has not come!” (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 4,37A). The Rabbi who wrote this was speaking in reference to the prophecy in Genesis 49:10 that the scepter will not depart from Judah until Shiloh comes.
I looked it up, and as far as I can tell, no such quote exists on that page of the Talmud.
So either somebody “invented” this quote because it makes a cool point in a sermon, OR the reference in wrong.
I called a “Jews for Jesus” friend of mine to see if he uses this quote in his evangelistic efforts, and he said, “All the time. It is very effective.” I asked him if he knew if the quote was authentic or not, and he assured me it was, even though he didn’t know where it could be found.
Then I aksed my new Jewish friends to help me find it, but they say the quote doesn’t exist. They suspect that some Christian invented (aka “forged”) the quote in an attempt to get Jews to become Christians. If true, somebody better tell all the pastors and authors who use this quote in their teachings (e.g. Chuck Missler, me, and others).
Finally, I tried to do some research online to find it, and discovered that lots of people have the same question, but nobody has yet found the quote. I tried to check some Jewish websites, and in the process, found out that many Jewish websites “rest” on the Sabbath (e.g. www.artscroll.com - try to access this site on Saturday before sundown). Very interesting.
So, I decided to ask you! Let me know what you discover…if anything.
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I know that probably nobody cares about this but me…
But here is some more information.
I talked with a Jewish Rabbi today who loves to do “Bible studies” with non-Jews. He told me that it is quite possible that the quote was originally in the Talmud. He said that back in the Middle Ages, some Rabbis went through the Talmud and edited out any references to Jesus as well as anything that Christians liked to use to evangelize Jews. Since this quote would be one which would fit that category, IF it was there, it is probably not there any longer.
Apparently, they are working on putting out a new (old) edition of the Talmud which contains all those quotes which were originally there, but edited out 500 years ago.
Another Jewish man said that there is a book which contains only those things that were edited out, but he couldn’t remember the name of the book.
So, I’ve got another trail to sniff out…
What? An ancient and holy book of prophecy may have been changed to better control the target demographic and further the agenda of those who controlled access to the information?
InconCEIVable!
I emailed Josh McDowell about the quote in his book, and here is the response I received back from one of his research staff:
“This quotation in *New Evidence that Demands a Verdict *is not correct. The quotation does not appear in the Babylonian Talmud at all, nor does it appear in other versions of the Talmud. I had a librarian at Talbot School of Theology research this for several months, and it appears to be a mistaken quotation that dates back several hundred years to a Latin commentary on the Talmud. Josh used a secondary source for his quotation, apparently a book called *Jesus Before the Sanhedrin, *a book by a Frenchman named M.M. Lemann. The English translation by Julius Magath was published in 1886. Lemann uses this quotation, and cites a Latin commentary by Raymond Martin called *Pugio fidei, *p 872. I have left this Latin quotation with a professor who knows both Hebrew and Latin to get the literal translation, but have not heard back from him.
“We deeply regret that this information in the *New Evidence *is not correct.
We apologize for the inconvenience to you. It will be corrected in future editions of *Evidence that Demands a Verdict.*”
Ah well, just a mistake. I’m sorry, Jeremy. This could have been your Da Vinci Code!
Thanks for the research Jeremy…..it is not only you that are interested in this!
I would love to know why people use so many ‘quotes’ from Talmud to state their case, and when I look up the reference in Talmud it either is not there or words have been added to suite their aim or the quote has been taken out of context (and actually says the opposite if quoted in context!)
I am actually starting to get sick of this, seems like ‘christians’ can be as big a ‘hypocrite’ as the ones (i.e. pharisees) they claim are hypocrites!
Beyers, I think your use of the word ‘hypocrite’ is wrongly applied. What I think is that many ‘chrisitians’ [sic] are so zealous for their faith they swallow anything that appears to bolster it that sounds scholarly. I also think that many are unable or unwilling to check the sources they cite.
I’ve read and reread the page in McDowell’s book and he clearly cites the Talmudic passage as a secondary source which is scholastically sound. What is NOT scholastically sound for a book like ‘Evidence that Demands a Verdict’ is their not checking secondary sources – especially when the validity of the citations are critical to the argument being made. It’s that “zealousness” thing AND it’s sloppy scholastics.
You do have to credit McDowell’s staff for owning up to the mistake. Willingness to own up to publicly acknowledge one’s mistakes is the mark of humility which is the opposite of hypocrisy.
Wow! What an eye opener. What I thought was going to be a 10 minute homework project turned into an entire evening of work. I was writing a response to a paper on common Messianic titles used during the intertestamental period. I thought I had a slam dunk answer by throwing in Shiloh as a Messianic title and citing the story in the Talmud. I am so glad I spent the last three hours researching this thing. I am amazed at how many people cite this story from the Talmud without even verifying it. It is kind of embarrassing to see what scholarly Jews say about it as well. I can’t speak for other Christians, but I know that I have learned a valuable lesson about just repeating things you hear – even from respected preachers and teachers.
Jimmy,
So I’m guessing you didn’t find it?
I’m still working on it… I have a possible lead…
I was recently trying to hunt the same thing down, with no success. But I did wind up here, which has been useful! Any luck with following that lead?
John,
I cannot even remember what my lead was any more. Sorry. I guess it didn’t pan out into anything.
Hi Jeremy,
I happened upon your post – I know it’s a bit old, but located a possible answer for your question about the Jews at the time of Coponius and the fulfillment of Genesis 49:10 – hopefully this will help:
From Let Us Reason
Luci,
Hmmm. That might help. I don’t think I have checked the Jerusalem Talmud yet. However, I did check the Babylonian Talmud, and this quote is not on that page.
Also, you have given me name of a Rabbi to research… Rabbi Ruchman. That is a lead to follow. Thanks for posting this! If I find anything further, I will update it here.
I will ask some of my Jewish coworkers about it also. Perhaps their Rabbis will have some input.