13 Reasons Why I Left the Institutional Church

By Jeremy Myers

This is a guest post by Sam Riviera. He spends most of his time and energy caring for others in his community so that through his life and actions they might see Jesus. If you have neighbors (and you do), you must read his series of posts on Getting to Know Your Neighbors.

If you would like to write a guest post for this blog, check out the guidelines here.

Leaving Church

Which Gospel?

When I was a child, I loved my church. I imagined Jesus sitting next to me when I was there. Jesus loved me this I knew, for I learned it in Sunday school.

As an adult, however, something changed. I could no longer imagine Jesus sitting beside me as I listened to a whole ‘nuther gospel, a gospel of money, power, authority, position, correct thinking, correct behaving and unquestioning acceptance of everything being taught.

Where Is Jesus?

I no longer knew what to call the institution. Church seemed inappropriate. So I called it religion and decided to look for Jesus elsewhere.

Although there are dozens of reasons why I left the institutional church, there are thirteen that especially stand out in my mind:

Apparently Jesus had left the building. I occasionally heard someone mention Him, but I could not find Him there.
I could no longer be part of an organization that did not treat women and men equally.
If I heard another “Christian” refer to LGBT people as abominations condemned to hell I was going to get in their face in a major way. I came within seconds of doing exactly that in front of hundreds of people at a mega church event.
The church was totally about preserving itself, which included protecting the money and playing the politics needed to accomplish that.
The church wanted and lusted after the rich, the beautiful, those with good jobs and large incomes, those who had married well, those who lived in the best neighborhoods and those who sent their children to the best schools. The church did not want or welcome the poor, the unlovely, minorities, LGBTs or the homeless.
The church did not want or welcome those who asked questions, those who disagreed with the leadership and those who did not contribute financially.
The pastor, staff and leadership rarely had time to talk to anyone except the power brokers and those who gave the most money.
Everyone was expected to believe exactly alike.
I asked the pastor “Do you know what happened to ‘Mr. Smith’? I haven’t seen him in several weeks.” “The last I heard he was very ill and in the hospital. He may have died,” the pastor replied. “Did you visit him at the hospital or call his family? I asked. “No. He wasn’t a member of the church.” Neither was I, nor were many of the people who attended there. If I ended up on my deathbed, at least I knew who would not be there. (I later learned from another source that ‘Mr. Smith had died a couple of weeks before my conversation with the pastor.)
I hated the cliques. There was always an “in” group. The “in” group ignored everyone else.
Most of the decisions of the church were not really made in board meetings, member meetings or in other official venues. They were made by a small group of power brokers behind the scenes – in phone calls and e-mails, in the hallways of the church and in other unofficial venues. The official venues were only for show.
The church disliked the people who lived in the neighborhood around the church.
The church did not interact with the neighborhood or community, or invest time or money in them. Most of the money was spent on the needs of the church.

My list of reasons was compiled based on what I experienced and observed at the churches I attended. Each item could be illustrated by numerous stories. My experience undoubtedly does not reflect everyone’s experience.

Did you ever leave the church? Why or why not? Did you return? Why or why not?

In Ecclesiology, Guest Posts

http://missionallendale.wordpress.com/ Joey Espinosa

I have been a part of a great church for the past 16 years. We have our struggles (after all, we’re made up of sinners), but I’m thankful that the leaders / elders have led us to a better place than the issues you bring up.

The leaders (because it all starts with leadership) intensely shepherd the flock, love our neighbors and the world (practically, not just theoretically), welcomes healthy discussions/debate, and treats others with the same grace and love that God has given to each of us.

I’m sorry for your experience, but it sounds like you’re saying that if you did find a church that didn’t do these things, you’d be back?
- Sam
  
  Being part of a great church can be so good. I hear that there are some. Unfortunately there are those of us who have experienced something much different. Our “church” is something not institutional, which I’ll briefly explain in response to Ian below.
http://www.mhmcintyre.us/ Mark McIntyre

Ouch! While I have not yet given up on the church much of what you write I have experienced and can give examples. I grew up as a pastor’s kid so have seen the underbelly of organized religion.

The danger lies in a leader or leaders feeling themselves above accountability or feel like they have a better understanding of what needs to be done than others in the church. When this elitism creeps in and the pastor does not realize that we are ALL sheep that tend to stray, this is when things get off track.

Real accountability fixes much of this and every leader must have at least one person who has the right to call him to account when he gets off track. We all have blind spots and we all struggle with pride. The leader who thinks he is above this will fall sooner or later.
- Sam
  
  Thank you Mark! Yes, leaders who misunderstand their role and misuse or abuse their position and power are definitely a big part of the problem.
  
  Having been part of the leadership in the churches of which we were a part definitely let me see “the underbelly of organized religion”.
  
  I haven’t given up on church at all, but at this time do not see myself becoming part of an institutional church again.
  - http://www.mhmcintyre.us/ Mark McIntyre
    
    I’m curious as to how you define the “institutional church.” By this do you mean those churches that have denominational structures?
    - Sam
      
      The term “institutional church” is another one of those religious terms that is defined in a variety of ways by a variety of people.
      
      In my experience, most denominational churches tend to fall into the category of institutional. But so do some groups who claim not to be part of a denomination. I’m aware of one group that describes themselves as both nondenominational and non institutional, but some of us find them to be both.
      
      I have found that most institutional churches are centered around properties (including buildings), (paid) staff and programs. Most are 501 (c)3 tax exempt organizations. Then again, just because a religious organization meets all of those criteria, it may not be a church – such as a para-church organization.
      
      On the other hand, we are familiar with some house churches that own no property, have no staff, few programs, no tax exemptions, yet have a striking resemblance in many ways to groups that have all of those things. They claim not to be part of a denomination, yet are part of a “collective” of house churches with very similar organization and beliefs.
      - http://www.facebook.com/caleb.gibson.7923 Caleb Gibson
        
        What is so evil about having buildings?
      - Marshall
        
        Caleb, the followers of Christ have no “buildings” or worship places of wood & stone because they themselves (in the flesh) are the living temples of their God. This was so certain among them, that they were sometimes mistaken for being atheists — unlike the pagan gods worshipped all around them, they had no building to meet with their god. Putting up a temple or tabernacle would be to return to a time before the Spirit was poured out upon us.
      - Marshall
        
        requiring a structure of wood, brick, steel or stone; believing that a building is neccessary reflects a cry for help from deep within the souls of those who have not yet received the Lord’s Life and Spirit into themselves. But where Christ is truly received and His Body discerned, there is no cry or expectation for a worship facility. That’s just how powerful and liberating He is! But where the old covenant of Moses has not yet been renewed in Christ, some form of outward temple worship continues.
      - Sam
        
        Marshall,
        
        My wife and I do not meet with anyone in a building, lest it occasionally be a coffee shop, or a home. We meet with people literally in the street. Very few church people can grasp this. When they ask and I explain, they almost always say “Yeah, but where do you GO to church.” I explain we don’t GO, but are the church and we do meet with people, those who follow Jesus and those who don’t. They still have trouble understanding.
        
        Some people think they need the building. If that’s what they believe they need, then then that’s what they should do
      - Marshall
        
        when & where we can perceive a cry for help, is it best to pass on by and leave the wounded to the world’s care? The sin of neglect may so quickly progress to a charge of murder, if we would pass by those suffering in domestic or religious abuse.
      - Sam
        
        Thus Jesus’ parable of the good Samaritan. All the good religious folks passed by the traveler who had been robbed and beaten, despite his pleas for help, pretending they did not notice. Apparently they were “on their way to church” as we might say. (“Out of my way sinner! I’m on my way to church.”)
        
        Ah, but the Samaritan’s act cost him a few coins. Don’t we need our coins to help pay for the new temple and if any coins are left, we’re saving up for a cruise.
        
        Once we choose to see those lying along the edge of the road, we notice their name is Legion, for they are many. Who most needs help? (I know those who will not help any because they fear they’ll be suckered into helping someone who is only pretending to need help, the “professional beggar”. Yes, we know a few of those.)
      - emeraldgems
        
        Caleb,
        
        nothing is inherently wrong with a building, just like any other inanimate object, it is incapable of moral standing. It can be used for both good and evil, but has no capacity fot either in and of itself. One of my faith communities has a building where we meet on Sunday and it is used as an alternative high school, food pantry, community gathering place, and more the rest of the week.
        
        The faith community that I help lead has several buildings. Mostly run down, but they are a nexus of 24 hour ministry. We house the homeless, feed the hungry, clothe those who have need, and run a 24 hour coffee shop where anyone on the street in the worst part of town can come in and have a cup of coffee free. Oh, and we have two community gathering times, and dozens of bible studies and counseling times, the only time we are closed is for a few hours on Sunday morning for the ministry workers to reconnect with their outside faith communities.
        
        All that being said, most people have a very difficult time seperating the faith community from the place they meet. If you doubt this, try being part of a church that decides to change their name. The problem is not the building, it is allowing the building to become an object of worship itself, or worse yet, allowing the limited resources to be used on a building instead of using a building as just another ministry tool.
        
        Pastor FedEx
        SetFree Ministries
        Colorado Springs
      - Sam
        
        FedEx,
        
        We want to check it out if we make it back to Denver. Old buildings being used to feed the hungry and house the homeless almost 24/7!
        
        I was just sitting here thinking about the church where we went to hear people talk about nuclear war and LGBTs – a waterfall and lake complete with swans. (The topics turned out to be too progressive for the folks.)
        
        And another church where a friend invited us to watch the performance of a play he had written. The play was in the “youth center” building’s theater, both of which were bigger and nicer than the nearby state university’s theater building. Was it wrong? – I don’t know, but all those millions when there are homeless people living under bushes nearby?
      - emeraldgems
        
        Sam,
        We would love to have you. We are actually about an hour south of Denver, in Colorado Springs. In fact, Kathy is coming to tour the place Thursday.
        I know what you mean about some of these “churches”and their buildings. We feed and house more than 50 full time residents on less than many of these churches pay each month just in utilities. Not saying the buildings are bad, but I think we could find better ways to use our resources.
        Pastor FedEx
        SetFree Ministries
        Colorado Springs
      - Sam
        
        That’s an offer we can’t refuse. We don’t travel much, but we have several friends in the Denver area. We’ll try to figure out some time when we you’ll all be in town. Give Jeremy permission to give me your e-mail. We’d love to see what you’re doing.
      - http://www.tillhecomes.org/ Jeremy Myers
        
        FedEx,
        
        I thought I had your email somewhere, but now I cannot find it. If you send it to me, I can forward it to Sam, and the two of you can meet! jmyers AT tillhecomes.org
      - Sam
        
        Caleb,
        
        I had to reread what I wrote here and the comments, but I fail to find the place where any of us said having buildings is evil. Where did you find that statement? As FedEx points out, buildings can be used in good ways, but it is also possible to allocate too many resources to properties.
ian

Mr. Riviera,

What have you been doing instead?

While I haven’t personally experienced some of your 13 reasons, I understand why you would be disgusted with the churches you attended. I guess I just don’t know what I would do instead. And I don’t really see doing nothing better than taking part in the church. Perhaps starting a new church that is built on biblical foundations like love, equality, hospitality, and holiness… But even if we leave the church, we still need to be enveloped in a fellowship of believers. Where am I to find that if not at the church?

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you mean by “institutional” church. These reasons disgust me as much as they disgust you, but I just don’t know what I would do instead to recieve the fellowship, discipleship, and teaching that I need and want. What have you done for your needs?
- Sam
  
  That’s a really good question, Ian.
  
  I guess you could say we are part of the church without walls. We do
  meet with other believers and many nonbelievers. For many of our
  friends, we are the only church they know. I have written many posts on
  GraceGround dot com on “Getting To Know Your Neighbors”, “Being the Church
  in the Community” and other related topics that partially explain what we do.
  
  We do not measure success in the traditional ways – how many people
  “attend’, how much money comes in, how many people are “saved” and so
  on. We do not think in those terms. We think in terms of following
  Jesus and loving people.
  
  Jeremy’s book, “Close Your Church For Good”, much of which can be found in posts on this blog explains “institutional” church (the church with property, staff and so on).
  - http://twitter.com/KatieHeintzeman Katie Heintzeman
    
    Well Said, Sam
Marshall

Sam Riviera’s “reasons why I left” seem woven in surface expectations. The institutional church is not a safe or healthy place to be, but for deeper matters such as corruption, syncretism, sectarian standard; clergy-laity; pulpit philosophers; church politics & event focus; the fraud of a “no cross”, no death, sin reigns “gospel”; denying the power of the gospel & failing to discern the Body of Christ.
- Sam
  
  Hello Marshall. Yes, I have experienced those those matters also. My thirteen reasons is not a complete list.
Cliveclifton01

Dear Sam, I feel sad that you had to leave your institutional Church, I hope you have found one that is open to all members and is not overly shepherded.

I’m a member of the institutional Church in the UK, the Church of England, and have had my own battles with the leadership team and also personal battles where I have found myself being judgmental and self opinionated.

It has not been pleasant for me to have to journey through self criticism but change I have. I am now able to love and therefore pray for those who struggle to understand the gospel that says to not only love the lovely but love the unlovely to.

My change from aggressor to lover has challenged many in the Church and instead of pushing them into an indefensible corner, it’s freed them up to change.

Personally I think you could have done a lot to change that Church by remaining, by leaving you have let them off the hook.
Luke Ch 6 v 27 to 49.

Love never gives up. Have you burnt your bridges, or can you return to love them into submission unto Jesus.

Your brother in Christ, Clive
- Sam
  
  Clive, I always appreciate your insight and your comments. I know from reading your comments that you too have struggled with the institutional church.
  
  We did stay for years and years, but those folks most definitely do not want to change. They love their power, control, position, paychecks and what-have-you. I have many friends who are pastors, and in confidence they agree with all that I have written, and have many items of their own to add.
  
  The church has become something much different than what it could be. I am too old to change that, but not too old to love my neighbor, the unlovely as well as the lovely.
http://www.delemares.wordpress.com/ sandra delemare

Thank God my church is not like that.
We may be small, our main building may be a portacabin – but Jesus turns up and we worship Him. and we reach out to our community in many ways – particularly to a housing estate with a poor reputation.
I’ve even been known to add something to a sermon when I sat and thought ‘how would a non-believer feel hearing that?’ [can't remember the details - but I remember our pastor agreeing with my comment - it was an addition, and not taking away from what he had said]
We are by no means perfect – but God would have to put a bomb under me for me to leave [He almost did, but that's another story]
- Sam
  
  I too thank God your church is not like what I described. Give thanks!
https://theway21stcentury.wordpress.com/ UnkleE

I am no fan of the church, I agree with most of your reasons, and I could easily leave too. But it is fair to say that there are some churches not like that at all – some Mennonite churches and “simple churches” for example. And if we leave, we do have to decide what we will do instead.

Churches in Australia are generally not as bad as your list here (e.g. not as wealth oriented or as smugly confident, and few televangelists in white suits). At the moment I am part of a church because we are trying to make a difference, but I think if it was my choice alone, I may not be there.
- Sam
  
  I agree, it is most certainly fair to say that all churches hopefully are not like what I described. Undoubtedly the church at large is in transition. In the USA I read and hear repeated reports that large numbers of people are abandoning the institutional church for a multitude of reasons. I am not the only one who finds that much of the church does not look at all like Jesus.
BilliusZetay

I left the institutional divisions because it is functionally disjointed like a collection of bones scattered around a room. The bones may clang together to make a lot of noise. The bones may hit people over the head. They may be in right formation, polished and white but they remain disconnected. The divisions are not church. In fact “church” isn’t church. Church isn’t even a biblical word. It isn’t even a translation of the word ekklesia. There’s not life. People are dying in church every day. Yet the hired help of these divisions protect the institutions that puts food on their tables. I’m sick of it all. Will the real body of Christ please stand up.
- Sam
  
  We’ve been to the same places!
  
  The real body of Christ does exist, but tends to get lost in the institution. We find that body present in many places – the streets, the neighborhood, the park, the store, among the homeless and in countless other places.
  - BilliusZetay
    
    I’ve been to so many I’ve lost count. That last few actually fell apart and scattered. One pastor left his wife. They got back together but he was too embarrassed to return. Restoration is part of the deal. Another divorced his wife and married his counsellee. Big split there. The church dissolved. One moved away to another town. Yep, the leaders moved closer to where they lived. Those of us too far to move were left with finding another church. The very last one was the pastor resigning and moving away. He had started the group and there was conflict with two others. I don’t know exactly what happened but I saw the results. All this over the last 12 years. So it’s been really rough for me and my wife. Divisions (what people call “church”) have become so toxic and unspiritual. They do make noise and they do preach loud so it sure sounds lively. We desperately want the real deal where fellow believers are free to operate in their gifting one to another and then outwardly. So far, nada.
Cliveclifton01

Thank God we have a choice and are free to say how we feel without fear of retribution.

All these comments make me feel very uncomfortable with the way I do church, however contrary to what Billius said, Jesus talked about His Church, Matthew 16 v 18 and Chapter 18 v 17. In Acts ch 2 v 14 plus ch 5 v 11 ch 8 v 1 + v 3. with many other references in Corinthians and the remainder of the new testament.

In the matthew 16 v 18 reference Jesus tells us “on this rock I will build my Church”
(meaning Himself not Peter as the RC would have us believe) and He said “and all the powers of hell will not conquer it”. Amen to that. That means the Church is invincible because as others have said in this Blog the Church Is Jesus. Those that are called can call themselves The Church, as Christ lives in us by The Spirit who is the Hope of Glory, Hallelujah. How about that then.

We do not run the Church, Jesus does. If we are killed for being Church or for calling ourselves Christians, the Church, The Christ, is not effected in a negative way because there is no death for a Christian as Jesus defeated death on that Cross.

Our earthly death is purely us being transfered into our heavenly home.

So, no matter how rubbish our vicars, priests, pastors or elders are, the victory is still His. Yes the devils helpers are in the Church trying to destroy it, as the devil thinks he can win, silly angel, he still cant believe he was defeated less that 2000 years ago by the sacrifice of the lamb of God.

We are Living Stones not natural stones, rocks or bricks stuck together with cement. The Church can not and will not be conquered. 1 Peter 2 v 5 to 6. The scripture continues from verse 7 to 8 for the unbelievers. It then continues with a warning for the believers verse 9 to the end. In Chapter 3 after dealing with wives and husbands in verse 8 peter continues and talks about suffering, in verse 17 he says “remember it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong”.

Tough message. God calls, we obey. Wherever we find ourselves we are to be willing to suffer. In chapter 4 Peter points us to more suffering by having the same attitude as Jesus
”enough of sin, be glad when you hit fiery trials”. The answer to suffering is not to run but to stand on the Rock (Jesus).

In Chapter 5 there is advise for Elders and Young people. God opposes the proud but favors the humble.

I love Gods Church, (by now you will have realised I mean the people, not the building we meet in), I love the wise and the foolish the high and the low. Lets do what Jesus did. He was willing to become nothing. He became the lowest in the household when He washed the disciples feet. When He said do this as often as you eat and drink in remembrance of me, He also meant us to do as He did. “do the works that I do” John Ch 14 v 12. Feed my sheep”,

Can we Follow Him. God loves a trier and does not condemn us when we think we fall short. God can use all we give, even our perceived mistakes. We have absolutely no idea what Gods love is like, His Grace will just blow our minds.

Love from your brother in Christ, Clive
- Sam
  
  I agree, Clive. The church is the people, the body of Christ. It is not so easily defined as “the people who attend services in that building on Sundays”. Some of those folks may be part of the church and some may not.
  
  We have found the body of Christ in many places – in the street, neighborhood, market, work and yes, even in buildings with a sign in front that says “church” – mixed in all of those places with other people.
  
  The institutional church may be a good place for some followers of Jesus. For many others I know, it has not been good. While I do not pretend to speak for all those folks, I too am one of them. Our name is legion, for we are many, yet we too can be part of the church, even if we choose not to be part of the institution.
- BilliusZetay
  
  Hello Clive,
  
  I am very much in agreement with just about everything you have written in the context in which it was written. It is true that the Church (to use that word for the sake of common language) – capital C – that eternal entity begun by the Holy Spirit that transcends time and space, cannot be defeated. (Remember Aslan and the last battle: Ultimate victory is assured). However, right here and right now at this time on planet earth, I would not make that claim. Jesus is head of His Church, His body, yet he himself posed a question for all generations “Why do you call me Lord and do not do what I say?” All authority is his but are all subject to him, even in the church? I certainly believe that all will be held to account by Jesus.
  
  My question to all dearly cherished believers in Christ – whom I do not want to sadden or discourage (or anger) – is “why do WE allow these artificial man-made religious structures to separate us from one another?” Are we not being governed by lies? Why else do we cling to the divisions that separate us? Sometimes right across the street from one another. What makes us so afraid of one another that we must let these institutions rule us (on false premise and usurped authority) and hinder our spiritual gifting meant to assist one another? Why have we allowed church service to replace serving one another?
  
  I have a vision that makes me truly restless. I sometimes toss and turn. I ask the Lord “When?” It is a burning desire in my heart to see the body of Christ loosed from religious shackles and live powerfully and miraculously. I want to see the Church offend the ungodly with humility, grace, mercy, and power. I want to hear their objections when they scream “why would you try to help a pedophile? A murderer? A whore?” Let the church be a place that makes the proud uncomfortable because they won’t fellowship with a “bum” or a “whore”.
  
  I believe in the Church that astounds, heals, saves and makes the devils tremble. I believe in Church where life is flowing abundantly from believer to believer. I believe in close connectivity between believers much like the close relationship that twins have for one another. It is said that even at a distance twins can sense each other. Paul spoke to churches saying he was present in spirit. I don’t think that was allegory. I think it was real. I think it is where we should be.   We are in desperate need of one another yet we hide from one another in these spired divisions. This is what makes me sad. So much latent potential and power is inherently present but, like an electric switch, we need the connectivity of one another. The Lord supplies the current. What we are missing, I feel, is truly shocking (pun intended).
  
  Perhaps I am a fool for thinking this way but it is a fire in my heart to one day see this. If I can be a part of that, nothing but nothing will matter any more and that is indeed invincible.    God bless you. May his grace and mercy be with you each day.
BilliusZetay

Sam, I have a question for you. It is admittedly a loaded question and if you wish not to respond I will understand. You may not want to commit to an answer. With regards to your reaction to the church not receiving LGBT’s, I have a theory – probably an outrageous theory that would get me stoned in the South.

I believe that the religious organizations are promoting homosexuality in the church and in society at large. Words advertise one thing; actions speak the opposite. 90% of our communication is body language. I see no reason why this would not be true corporately.

If a doctor tells me I am sick but denies me the remedy, he is in fact promoting my sickness which can only get worse and worse. Perhaps he has misdiagnosed me. He sees symptoms but has the wrong disease and insists on the wrong cure. I tell him it is not working but he accuses me of not following his instructions. Perhaps he refuses to come to me and I must make the effort to get to his office. Maybe I am too weak to do so and need assistance. I am willing but I am weak. He can make all the claims in the world that there is a cure but what good is it to me if he does not release it to me? What if the nurses and medics under the doctor’s authority want me to have the cure but he will not authorize its release? The cure can only be administered to me by those with the skill to do so. The other patients are hoping for their own cure for other or similar illness and so are too preoccupied to help me. I am left without hope. Ultimately I will hurry away out of discouragement and tell others that all I ever got was being told I was sick but never ever able to be healed.

I believe this is what is happening with homosexuality (among other things) but this one is a hot topic in the world today. Virtually all homosexuals who get saved go back into the world and back into homosexuality. Why? I believe their illness has been misdiagnosed and they have been put on the wrong treatment plan. The plan they need is denied them because of fear and condemnation.

Quick clean it up so he looks like a decent Christian. They deal with the symptoms not the cause. It’s about appearances.

There are two things I see happening when a homosexual is saved. The first is that the men are uncomfortable and never really bond with the brother. He inevitably always feels like an outcast, never fits in. They are always suspicious and careful. They don’t touch him. They don’t cry with him. They don’t show affection. (How do people think people get healed? Take two pills and call me in the morning?) They get shocked if he shows weakness. Sometimes, secretly when nobody is looking, they show contempt and sexually tease him with gestures and taunts. Openly they give him the rule book of correct Christian conduct and right thinking. Read the manual, figure it out. Fellowship with the sisters is easier but they too have expectations.

Yes, in part I am describing my own experience (including the being teased part by no less than three different Christian men). The miracle is that I am, after so many years, not part of the hordes who tried and gave up. I actually got married to a wonderful woman (through work, not through church circles) but I also don’t kid myself about continuing persistent struggles. I have concluded that I cannot crucify myself. It is impossible. I tried to tell a pastor about this and the expression of shock on his face that I had such struggles said it all “say no more.”

That’s the theory. The question is what do you think should happen? Should we step back and put our trust in the Lord and let him deal with the person in the order that the Lord sees fit? Is homosexuality really and truly at the top of the Lord’s list of priorities when beginning the work of transformation? The knee jerk reaction is “yes, yes, absolutely. It’s sin and abomination!” Yet we read in Proverbs 4:19 we are told that “sowing discord among brethren” is abomination. Homosexuality isn’t even in the list of Pr. 4:16-19. Malachi tells us in chapter 3:13 to 16 that divorcing one’s wife is abomination ( I think most divorce is the man’s fault – though not all). Exactly who is in charge and who is responsible? Is it possible that there are other issues to be dealt with first before homosexuality and that we should let the Lord we say is in charge actually rule? Do we really and truly believe that God will work things out, in his order, in his time.

What if two gay men get saved together? Oops! Shall we tear their souls apart because we think we should perform emergency bloody surgery to pacify our discomfort? Shall we rush these things or actually wait for the Lord to lead?

I guess I am searching to hear if I am truly alone in such thinking.
- Sam
  
  Billius, I read this earlier and have been thinking about it
  all day.
  
  We have many LGBT friends, none of whom follow Jesus. “Christians” have not been kind to our LGBT friends. They have no problem being kind and loving to
  those who have been divorced, had babies out of wedlock and so on, but feel
  that being kind and loving to LGBTs means telling them that they are sinners
  and abominations.
  
  Discussions on most Christian blogs that have anything to do
  with LGBTs almost always revert to heated discussions on two issues – 1) Is homosexuality a sin? And 2) Is homosexuality inborn or a “choice”? I have thoughts on those issues, but choose
  not to discuss them online, since the discussions always go nowhere. I choose to love people. I feel no need to make a determination about
  whether or not they are a saint or sinner.
  
  Should a Hindu approach me and condemn me for eating a
  hamburger and call me a “sinner” or something of the sort, I would probably
  tell him I’m not a Hindu, and that I feel no need to live by what his religion
  thinks. Later, with my friends, I might comment that the guy is some sort of
  religious nut to think that I should try to live by what his religion thinks.
  
  That’s pretty much what has happened when “Christians” have
  approached my LGBT friends. My friends
  think the “Christians” are offensive, religious nuts. (I’m cleaning up the
  language for this blog.) What Christians
  consider “sins” are often not considered as such by those who are not
  Christians.
  
  Not long ago, I saw a letter to the editor in the newspaper (on
  a different topic). One sentence caught my attention: “People of faith need
  to recognize that their religion’s ‘sins’ are only for themselves, so their job is to get
  their own house in order.” Wow! Christians just don’t get this.
  
  So how should I deal with others? – Love them. If the Lord needs to deal with them, He
  will. Even if I try, the only thing that I’ll probably accomplish
  is offending them and chasing them away from the Kingdom. As my dad was fond of saying, “Honey draws
  more flies than vinegar”. I would modify
  that to say “Love draws more to the Kingdom than does condemnation”.
  
  “Shall we allow them to continue in their sin?” (Whoever the “them” might be?) Well, unless that’s the Father, Son and
  Spirit talking, I think it is an inappropriate question. Who are we to think that we are in a position
  to allow (or stop) anyone in what we suppose to be their sin?
  
  Billius, if you’d like to continue this conversation by
  e-mail, e-mail Jeremy and tell him I give him permission to give you my e-mail
  address. I can be much more specific
  discussing theses issues than I am here.
  This is Jeremy’s blog and I don’t want to change its focus.
  - BilliusZetay
    
    Sam, I’m stumped. I scoured the site and can’t find where I can write an e-mail to Jeremy. Yes I would like to continue the conversation.
    - Sam
      
      Billius, Go to the “About” button, which is in the black bar that goes across the page, near the top, just under the words “Bringing Scripture and Theology To Life”, then click on the first item under that, which again says “About”. You’ll see a picture of Jeremy and his wife. Scroll a little further down the page, and you will see a contact form so you can contact Jeremy.
      
      I’ve told Jeremy that you might contact him and that he may give you my e-mail address. Neither of our e-mail addresses are a big secret. However, posting them online causes big problems. The one time I posted another e-mail address, some web crawler found it and within a day I was deluged with porno, fake Viagra adds, and all sorts of very strange e-mails from people I don’t know.
      
      I’d be happy to continue the conversation.
- Sam
  
  I guess I found out what happens when I compose in Word and then paste into WordPress. Sorry for the odd reformat!
Nita

I appreciate this post – thank you! I stepped away from institutional church almost four years ago after having been raised in it and served in it all my life (I’m in my 60′s now).

Some of the reasons you give, Sam, wouldn’t be mine. The local congregation that I was part of was a relatively healthy body and I had a good relationship with the people in it.

My journey has been that of a person who gradually over some years, through evaluating my own experience of being in “Christian ministry” and through reading books and material on simple church, became increasingly disillusioned with organized Christianity…not because of abuse as such. I simply began to see that so much of the way we “do church” gets in the way of encountering Jesus and His beauty. That which was “normal” for me as far as “church” was concerned, began to lose its shine and I became aware that these normal “trappings” were obstacles to seeing Him in clarity.

Sometimes I feel like I have grown more in knowing God in these past 4 years than in all the years before that! There have been some major paradigm shifts taking place in my thinking and understanding.

I’m still in the journey related to where this will all land in terms of being the church with others; for now, I’m at peace with the informal fellowship I have going. I still have strong relationships in the Lord and am thoroughly enjoying learning how to live and walk in freedom and simplicity with Jesus and others. Along with others around me who are on a similar journey, I am praying for the Lord to help us discern His leadership.
- Sam
  
  Sometimes I feel like I have grown more in knowing God in these past 4 years than in all the years before that!” We have found the same. When we were part of the institution, we were led to believe that is where God’s people gather. Imagine our shock in discovering that many of God’s people are in the streets (literally, but also this is my way of saying everywhere we run across people).
  
  I vividly remember the Sunday morning we were picking up trash off the street in an inner city neighborhood. I rounded a corner and one woman approached me. Then another and eventually another. All were neighbors of the church across the street from where I stood, the church with thew doors open. We could all hear the singing and the shouting.
  
  Those three ladies told me that the church did not want them or their families on their property. “They all drive in from out of the neighborhood and they want nothing to do with us.” Those ladies wanted nothing to do with that church, but they did want to talk about Jesus. Three ladies and I met with Jesus on a street corner in an inner city on Sunday morning. Jesus’ presence was very real. I can’t say I had ever sensed His presence like within the walls of a church. Perhaps some do.
  
  In the years since then, we have repeatedly found Jesus in the street among His people, on many streets and with many people. One of the most remarkable experiences ever was the past Easter (I wrote a post on GraceGround dot com titled “Dancing With Jesus” ( Find it at http://www.graceground dot com/california/looking-for-jesus/dancing-with-jesus/ )
- BilliusZetay
  
  I am very sympathetic to your observations about the fading of the religious glitter and seeing the little man behind the curtain. You are very fortunate in your walk that you have increased in knowing him.
Cliveclifton01

Dear Billius, your experiences with other Christians made me cry to think that anyone could be so callous. years ago some of our youth were budding homosexuals and received plenty of bullying, verbally and physically at school and in Church. My friendship with them caused tongues to wag as to whether or not I could be a closeted puff myself.

I do believe it’s fear when heterosexuals meet a gay person, as it makes them scared that they might be chatted up or even worse find out that they are a closeted gay, and as in my case became tarred with the same brush, “there’s no smoke without fire”,

Enough of that. Billius I hope your conversations with Sam will bring some closure in any worries you still might feel about being unworthy. Jesus did say “I’ve come to heal the sick not the healthy”
New Living Translation (©2007) Mark 2 v 17When Jesus heard this, he told them, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor–sick people do. I have come to call not those ‘who think’ they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”
The Bible also says ALL have fallen short so none are healthy (righteous).Romans 3:23
remember the speck and the log in the eye

I’ve had my moments and still do of sinning, but with Jesus help I manage to put aside evil thoughts. They do return and as I listen to them and begin to enjoy them, the Holy Spirit exposes them, I then ask for them to be taken away and he does immediately. I am a saint that sometimes (more often than I would like) sins.

There is NO condemnation in Christ Jesus, that comes from the opposition who wants me back, well he cant have me, I belong to Christ.

I’m sure you can say that Billius, be assured you are not on your own. We, you ,I, Jeremy and billions of others are assured of our destiny to live with God forever.

Your brother in Christ, Clive X
http://twitter.com/KatieHeintzeman Katie Heintzeman

Reasons 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11,13…. Absolutely.
I will probably never step into another institutional church. Especially not after seeing how beautiful truly living in community with other believers and Loving one another… ‘the church’ (WE are the church) is. True, Organic Church Life.
- Sam
  
  Wouldn’t it be nice if it weren’t that way? Although I know those who report a more positive experience, sadly it never worked out for us, and for many other people we know. However, we can follow Jesus outside the institution. We think that works well for us. Now we see the “siege mentality” those inside had, the need for conformity (in thought, politics, economic status and so one), the enormous amounts of money wasted on multi-million dollar properties while people in the community were hungry and so on.
http://www.facebook.com/caleb.gibson.7923 Caleb Gibson

What do you mean, Institutional church? If a church was everything you believed, would you go? Then isn’t it their belief system and not, “the church.”
http://www.ryanpeterwrites.com/ Ryan Peter

Let this be an encouragement. In my 16+ years of active church life (meaning, since I became an adult and got involved in what the church does) I have not experienced a single one of these points. My church has always been a thousand members strong, so it’s not because I necessarily go to a small church. I know there are other churches that do practice such things, but they’re pretty easy to spot, and their existence doesn’t mean that local church is not God’s idea.

There are reasons why I think I’ve not experienced such things at my church, but that would be too much to expound in this comment.
- Sam
  
  Your church sounds like a good church. I’ve read that there are over three hundred thousand churches in the USA, so there must be some really good ones somewhere. I’m guessing that it’s not an accident, but very intentional on the part of the leadership.
http://steveedwardsthoughts.wordpress.com/ Steve Edwards

Actually it’s impossible to ‘go to church’ under the original meaning of the word ‘ecclesia’ which means – if I understand correctly – ‘those called out’. WE ARE the ‘church’. The people! And wherever we are Jesus is there with us. This the true church. Gathering together in His name, no matter how many, and no matter where. Church is life.
- Sam
  
  Steve,
  
  Yes, I see it that way also. We are the church, those of us who follow Jesus. Jesus goes with us.
  
  My wife and I find Jesus in the neighborhood, in the streets, at the swap meet, among the poor and homeless and wherever we are. We don’t have to go to a certain place at a certain time.
http://steveedwardsthoughts.wordpress.com/ Steve Edwards

I live in Phnom Penh and here many Jesus followers are outside of the mainstream church, myself included. My reasons: it bores me senseless. 1 question: How can we make church so boring when Jesus is so exciting?
- Sam
  
  That can happen. I don’t know if you “attend” church, but whether you do or not I’d suggest you get to know your neighbors, the poor, indigent, homeless, and troubled people where you live and find ways to intentionally show them the love of Jesus.

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